Forked Thread: Healing Surges: Let's see them in Action!
- Thread starter Hussar
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Brown Jenkin
First Post
The healing surge mechanic can be found in some movies and in other movies it is not used. I'm not sure what the point is in pointing out examples of each. Some people like movies where the hero is plotted that way, some people don't. Some people like heroes in movies acting that way but don't want to run/play in rpgs like that.
This whole arguement about healing surges in action seems to be another way to open a front on the edition war thread.
Person 1: See, healing surges are in action movies
Person 2: But I don't like healing surges, and see here are action movies without healing surges.
Person 1: But healing surges are in movies so 4E needs them
Person 2: But I don't want to play with them and RPGs are different from movies.
Person 1: 4E is better because of surges
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
And so on and so on and so on.
This whole arguement about healing surges in action seems to be another way to open a front on the edition war thread.
Person 1: See, healing surges are in action movies
Person 2: But I don't like healing surges, and see here are action movies without healing surges.
Person 1: But healing surges are in movies so 4E needs them
Person 2: But I don't want to play with them and RPGs are different from movies.
Person 1: 4E is better because of surges
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
Person 1: Yes it is
Person 2: No its not
And so on and so on and so on.
D'karr
Adventurer
The point for me would be that when a player asks me what a healing surge represents, I can give him an example that makes sense within the context of the rules.
No edition war reference in my mind. As a matter of fact, my example could also be taken as "a very high hit point character just deciding that taking the plunge off a clifftop is more advantageous." In this particular case, the advantage of a healing surge mechanic is that it doesn't have to be limited to very high hit point characters.
ExploderWizard
Hero
Its completely different though. A very high hit point character could make that jump, take the damage, heal a bit of it with first aid, take a rest ( even get some sleep) and be ready to fight his enemies. This doesn't mean that he is at maximum capacity. He might still be down hp from that fall but can still fight.
The same guy with fewer hp but having the surge/rest mechanic takes the fall which leaves him with only a handful of hp, surges with a a short rest and wound bind, then gets some sleep. When he wakes up he is as ready to fight as if the fall never happened. The brutal fall which nearly claimed his life (mechanically) is forgotten after a brief nap.
This is why the hp system is a poor way to model the effects of injury in general. Hps work ok as a combat resource but with the surges/ healing rates in 4E, something else was needed to model the longer lasting wounds and wasn't addressed at all.
D'karr
Adventurer
I agree that the HP mechanic does a "poor" job of modeling long term wounds. In either game paradigm.
In the "cinematic version" the wound is forgotten too. It never comes back on-screen, nap or not. Do you ever see John Rambo again with as much as a limp?
I specifically made my example not have the equivalent of an extended rest because the example is of the use of healing surges and that example shows it very well.
In a game that does not have a "healing surge mechanic", the protagonist would have to have much more hit points to simulate the same thing. Character A & B both have 60 HP at full health. Character A is in a game without the Healing Surge mechanic. Both characters fall off a 60 foot cliff. Due to their acrobatic prowess and athletics they both get to take damage as if falling from a 50 foot cliff. When they fall they both take 25 points of damage. So they are both now at 35 HP.
Character B can use as many healing surges as he has left, as soon as he takes a short rest, or he can take one right now if he has not spent his second wind. He decides to use his second wind now and recovers 15 HP, now at 50HP he goes to seek shelter to rest some more, but if he encounters a dangerous creature he is more combat effective. Character A has no way of recovering HP until he rests. So he sets out to seek shelter and wait until tomorrow to recover his level in HP.
Both characters are heroes and both could continue adventuring at this point, it's just that one is able to continue adventuring right now, while the other is not as capable. If Character B had been out of healing surges, he has the same issue as character A in that he should probably go seek shelter.
Since my games are used to play with "heroic fantasy" characters then, for me, the healing surge mechanic works just fine. I get that people don't like the mechanic and will disallow it on their D&D games, that is their prerogative.
Me, I'm very happy that it exists. It makes it easier to play the kind of games that my players like.
Bladesong
Explorer
This message in no way takes a side on the 3.5 vs. 4.0 battle as I frankly do not care. My group plays a hybrid of the two and we are all perfectly happy with it. This is just my thoughts on the subject as a whole.
A lot of this has to do with naming conventions and how people perceive things. Some people see a successful roll with a weapon or a “hit” if you will, as a gaping wound while others see it as just a scratch (especially if it does 6 hps of damage and the target has 200 hps). Perhaps just calling things by different names would better put things in perspective. Let me throw out some (they won’t be the best as I am doing this on the fly), and I will use 4ed just because that is where the healing surge originates.
Instead of hit points let’s call it ‘Wear’. You don’t hit someone with a successful roll you have a successful ‘Swing’ which causes ‘Wear’ on the target. When your ‘Wear’ is at half its total value, you are ‘Fatigued’ instead of bloodied. When you reach 0 ‘Wear’ you are unconscious and if you are dropped to -1 ‘Wear’ you are ‘Injured’ or ‘Wounded’.
Now instead of a healing surge let’s call it an ‘Energy Surge’. Your ‘Energy Surge’ relieves ‘Wear’ and can actually energize you out of being ‘Fatigued’ and can actually help you to regain consciousness due to the efforts of your allies.
To make this emulate some of the shows you mentioned most of them took a great deal of ‘Wear’, some of them were ‘Fatigued’ and some of them even were unconscious; ‘Energy Surges’ handle all of those effects cleanly. As for the ones that were ‘Injured’ or ‘Wounded’ and came back fighting, the ‘Energy Surge’ easily explains their ability to continue as well and then rest up when all is said and done.
So this begs the question “How then do you resolve the guy in the wheelchair (who obviously was ‘Wounded’) and some of the others?” I would propose the following to those of you who need the “somewhat more realistic” conditions. For ‘Fatigued’ a Weakened condition is probably a bit harsh, but you could impose a -1 square movement and perhaps a -1 or -2 to ‘Swings’ and ‘Wear’. For ‘Injured’ or ‘Wounded’ conditions you could impose a longer penalty until time or magical healing (or ritual) takes place. This could be as complicated as a chart with as many or as few conditions as fits your taste or as simple as penalties. For example the guy in the wheelchair (fantasy setting would just be immobilized); he cannot walk on his own for 1 month or until the appropriate ritual is performed. It could just as easily be he is on crutches and is effectively slowed (2 sq. movement) which works a little better in a fantasy setting. You could reduce movement by a couple of squares and impose a -5 penalty on Acrobatics and Athletics checks. Sprains or breaks could impose a -2 on ‘Swings’ and ‘Wear’ and/or Fortitude and Reflex defenses until the condition heals or is resolved. Head injuries impose a penalty on powers and Will defenses. I could go on and on but this is already rather lengthy.
The one thing either version has in common is that you can modify it to fit the needs (desires is probably more accurate) of your gaming style which I for one am thankful for.
In any case…happy gaming!
A lot of this has to do with naming conventions and how people perceive things. Some people see a successful roll with a weapon or a “hit” if you will, as a gaping wound while others see it as just a scratch (especially if it does 6 hps of damage and the target has 200 hps). Perhaps just calling things by different names would better put things in perspective. Let me throw out some (they won’t be the best as I am doing this on the fly), and I will use 4ed just because that is where the healing surge originates.
Instead of hit points let’s call it ‘Wear’. You don’t hit someone with a successful roll you have a successful ‘Swing’ which causes ‘Wear’ on the target. When your ‘Wear’ is at half its total value, you are ‘Fatigued’ instead of bloodied. When you reach 0 ‘Wear’ you are unconscious and if you are dropped to -1 ‘Wear’ you are ‘Injured’ or ‘Wounded’.
Now instead of a healing surge let’s call it an ‘Energy Surge’. Your ‘Energy Surge’ relieves ‘Wear’ and can actually energize you out of being ‘Fatigued’ and can actually help you to regain consciousness due to the efforts of your allies.
To make this emulate some of the shows you mentioned most of them took a great deal of ‘Wear’, some of them were ‘Fatigued’ and some of them even were unconscious; ‘Energy Surges’ handle all of those effects cleanly. As for the ones that were ‘Injured’ or ‘Wounded’ and came back fighting, the ‘Energy Surge’ easily explains their ability to continue as well and then rest up when all is said and done.
So this begs the question “How then do you resolve the guy in the wheelchair (who obviously was ‘Wounded’) and some of the others?” I would propose the following to those of you who need the “somewhat more realistic” conditions. For ‘Fatigued’ a Weakened condition is probably a bit harsh, but you could impose a -1 square movement and perhaps a -1 or -2 to ‘Swings’ and ‘Wear’. For ‘Injured’ or ‘Wounded’ conditions you could impose a longer penalty until time or magical healing (or ritual) takes place. This could be as complicated as a chart with as many or as few conditions as fits your taste or as simple as penalties. For example the guy in the wheelchair (fantasy setting would just be immobilized); he cannot walk on his own for 1 month or until the appropriate ritual is performed. It could just as easily be he is on crutches and is effectively slowed (2 sq. movement) which works a little better in a fantasy setting. You could reduce movement by a couple of squares and impose a -5 penalty on Acrobatics and Athletics checks. Sprains or breaks could impose a -2 on ‘Swings’ and ‘Wear’ and/or Fortitude and Reflex defenses until the condition heals or is resolved. Head injuries impose a penalty on powers and Will defenses. I could go on and on but this is already rather lengthy.
The one thing either version has in common is that you can modify it to fit the needs (desires is probably more accurate) of your gaming style which I for one am thankful for.
In any case…happy gaming!
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ExploderWizard
Hero
Its just a style difference. The older systems weren't perfect but they modeled PC's a bit closer to real people than four color superheroes. In those systems I saw the heroic fantasy manifested by the heroes having the ability to even take that kind of punishment and keep breathing rather than the speed of recovery from such damage.
The slower recovery (without magic) was an important reminder that even though the PC's are heroes, they are still people, and can be injured rather severely. I didn't always agree with the recovery rates in some rule sets, but some measure of real non-magical healing time helped with the feeling that PC's are people. Heroic people, but not superheroes.
If the DM and players are happy with the superhero approach then go for it. Its one thing that dips its spandex foot into my tub of traditional fantasy a bit too deep for my liking.
Jeff Wilder
First Post
I dunno (I never saw those movies), but John McClane (for some reason the poster boy for healing surges, even though he's better modeled with pre-4E hit points) sure as hell limped.
D'karr
Adventurer
Some keep calling it that (superheroes) but I'd say that is looking at previous editions through rose colored glasses. D&D Heroes have never been close to real people. How many HP did a commoner in 1e have. That was static too, he always had that amount. In 3e, the commoner now can be a 20th level commoner and be a superhero himself, but the average 20th level adventurer still left him in the dust. 4e is no different.
When compared to "real people", the real people are left far behind in any edition of D&D.
D'karr
Adventurer
Yep, he was suffering from the "slowed" condition. How would he have been modeled in previous games?
BTW, some have said that 4e has no way of dealing with long term injury, which is not entirely true. You can easily use the "Disease Track" to model a wide array of long term injury, including the "permanent" loss of hit points or surges until cured.
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