Forked Thread: PC concept limitations in 4e

[thecasualoblivion]

I have not seen any bard stuff. A bard with a high percentage of damage effects is not very bardlike to me. The question of difference here is this:
Are any spells with damage + effect worth casting without the damage?

If the answer is no then effect is just window dressing.

This is the wrong way to look at it. Most spells that are damage+effect are more worth casting than spells that are pure damage, even if its more.

 

[ExploderWizard]

You might want to rephrase this. What you've just written says, in essence, that unless a spell is unbalanced it isn't well written. Because that's what a spell would be, if it were worth casting even if it did no damage, and it still did damage.

Drop the "and still did damage" part please. An example would be to drop damage to 0 on forcecage and have it contain the target for perhaps 2-12 rounds.

For what its worth, the bard is a 4e class. It gets utility spells at a lot of different levels. For example, "Inspire Competence," a bardic ability you might recall, is available at level 2. Or "Allegro," a new power that speeds up your allies movements, is available at level 6. Or the new "Veil" at 10, which is basically "disguise self" except better and for your entire party for up to an hour.

These sound like nice bard powers. Even without knowing the mechanics they sound thematically correct.

I guess, for the sake of completion, I should note "Fast Friends," which is a level 1 attack encounter power that deals no damage. On a hit it prevents an opponent from attacking a target of your choice for a certain amount of time. Fun if you use it on someone in melee reach of a Fighter.

Sounds another cool bard power-more like this please

 

[The Little Raven]

Build me a dual-wielding katana and wakisashi samurai in o-yori (great armor) in 4e using just the PHB.

That's easy, because this is all concept without the preconceived notion of mechanics attached to it.

Ranger + Two-blade Style + Enough feats for Scale or Plate Armor + Bastard Sword + Short Sword = Musashi-style Samurai

If you wanted to go with a more traditional style of samurai, since two-blade style wasn't the traditional method, you can just make him a Fighter.

Hell, if you want to add more character depth, you could make him a disgraced samurai to explain why he doesn't have plate armor at 1st level, and make part of his character concept to redeem himself in the eyes of his caste.

Bonus points if you can get him high hit points and some form of marking.

And this part is not concept, this is mechanics again. "Samurai" does not mean defender or blow-absorber.

 

[Usumcasane]

Easy. Human Paladin with Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword and Two Weapon Fighting as his feats. Done in one.

Fine. Build me a dual-wielding katana and wakisashi samurai in o-yori (great armor) in 4e using just the PHB. Bonus points if you can get him high hit points and some form of marking.

 

[Lacyon]

Fine. Build me a dual-wielding katana and wakisashi samurai in o-yori (great armor) in 4e using just the PHB. Bonus points if you can get him high hit points and some form of marking.

... This is a joke, right? I don't think I need the PHB for this, I can do this with the free content from DDI.

I suspect you wouldn't like my answer, though.

 

[ExploderWizard]

That depends on whether you want to defeat the target or not.

If Defeat = only running something out of hitpoints the entire combat process becomes a game of PONG.

That's an... odd... position to take.

Would you say that a level 23 power that contains a target for 1 round is worth casting?

 

[Phaezen]

Fine. Build me a dual-wielding katana and wakisashi samurai in o-yori (great armor) in 4e using just the PHB. Bonus points if you can get him high hit points and some form of marking.

3 possible builds

Weapons in all cases are bastard sword (Katana) and short sword (Wakisashi).

O-yori - use Plate armour.

Build one - Ranger with fighter or paladin multiclass feets, and run the armour proficiency feats up to plate, but you can stop at chain and of course bastard sword.

Build 2 - Fighter, two weapon fighting, two weapon defense, plate proficiency, bastard sword

Build 3 - Paladin, two weapon fighting, two weapon defense, bastard sword.

Martial power opens up the tempest build for fighters.

Phaezen

 

[The Little Raven]

Would you say that a level 23 power that contains a target for 1 round is worth casting?

As it confines an epic-level threat, I would absolutely find it worth casting. Now, this is based on reading, not playing it, since we haven't gotten anywhere near the Epic tier yet, so my opinion could change with practical experience.

 

[billd91]

This is puzzling and nonsensical.

Old way: Effect
New way: Effect + "damage"

Combine this with minion rules and the claim that it doesn't work as well is not at all nonsensical. It means you can't use those spells on minions without killing them, and that's not good if you want to have options for non-violent crowd control.

 

[Lacyon]

If Defeat = only running something out of hitpoints the entire combat process becomes a game of PONG.

On the contrary, HP are definitionally that which prevent you from being defeated. In prior editions, they only prevented you from being defeated by Greatsword or Fireball.

Now they also prevent you from being defeated by Dominate.

Would you say that a level 23 power that contains a target for 1 round is worth casting?

Every time.

Combine this with minion rules and the claim that it doesn't work as well is not at all nonsensical. It means you can't use those spells on minions without killing them, and that's not good if you want to have options for non-violent crowd control.

You cannot kill minions unless you intend to kill them, damage notwithstanding.