Forked Thread: Rate WotC as a company: 4e Complete?

[Lackhand]

SPEAR:
A spear is a pole weapon used for hunting and war, consisting of a shaft, usually of wood, with a sharpened head. The head may be simply the sharpened end of the shaft itself, as is the case with bamboo spears, or it may be of another material fastened to the shaft, such as obsidian or bronze. The most common design is of a metal spearhead, shaped like a triangle or a leaf.

LANCE: While it could still be generally classified as a spear, the lance tends to be larger - usually both longer and stouter and thus also considerably heavier, and unsuited for throwing, or for the rapid thrusting, as with an infantry spear. Lances did not have spear tips that (intentionally) broke off or bent, unlike many throwing weapons of the spear/javelin family, and were adapted for mounted combat. They were often equipped with a vamplate, a small circular plate to prevent the hand sliding up the shaft upon impact.

I would argue they are not the same.

A bamboo spear (as above) and a bamboo lance would be the same thing, except that the lance would "often" have a vamplate.

 

[VanRichten]

A bamboo spear (as above) and a bamboo lance would be the same thing, except that the lance would "often" have a vamplate.

You argument would lead me to believe that a short sword and a longsword are exactly the same only the difference is length.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

No I am referring to an Ogre who can't pick up a rock and throw it at the wizard. Or for that matter throw another PC.

Sure, he can do that*. And deal pathetic damage - if he hits at all, considering that his strength score is a little higher then his dexterity score. (Of course, in 4E this wouldn't be such a big problem, since there are thrown weapons that allow you to use strength _and_ still have quite some range, something not so true for a thrown rock or PC.)


*) Well, the rock part. Improvised weapon (-4 to penalty, range increment probably 2 squares10 feet . Throwing a PC? Didn't see rules for that, except maybe in Iron Heroes...


The trick for the PCs is to be smart enough to only engage that Ogre at range, even if this means the Wizard has to stay aloft for 5 minutes and fire all crossbow bolts and arrows owned by the PCs - assuming he doesn't have any spells that could do the same job... A Warlock would love this.

 

[Jack99]

No I am referring to an Ogre who can't pick up a rock and throw it at the wizard. Or for that matter throw another PC.

protectionfromnormalmissiles!

 

[CountPopeula]

Does the current edition of Warhmmer Fantasy Roleplay cut out traditional elements of earlier editions?
Does the current edition of Shadowrun cut down on the scope of what Shadowrun's previous editions used to deliver?

Would a version of Call of Cthulhu be a complete version of Call of Cthulhu without some variety of insanity? Would Traveller be a complete version of Traveller without spaceship combat? Would Mechwarrior be a complete version of Mechwarrior without either scout or heavy mechs or house factions?

Probably not.

Games carve out their niches and get a chance to define what that niche is over time. How would you feel if that niche changed or, in this case, narrowed in focus or breadth? Would it feel as comprehensive as previous editions? Would it feel lacking, even if it were eminently playable?

You know, the new Neon Genesis Evangelion manga doesn't have giant robots. The previous manga didn't have giant robots or angels. The TV show they're based on was about giant robots fighting angels.

I believe the word is re-invention. 2e and 3e were essentially continuations of the same game. 4e is essentially a new game. This may upset people who wanted 4e to be a continuation of 3e, and I know the inevitable reply will be "then it's not D&D" or some other such nonsense, but D&D 4e is basically an entirely new game, and saying it's incomplete because it has less options than a game with 8+ years of support is silly.

Saying it's incomplete because it doesn't have the exact same classes and races as the previous edition is sillier.

 

[VanRichten]

Sure, he can do that*. And deal pathetic damage - if he hits at all, considering that his strength score is a little higher then his dexterity score. (Of course, in 4E this wouldn't be such a big problem, since there are thrown weapons that allow you to use strength _and_ still have quite some range, something not so true for a thrown rock or PC.)

*) Well, the rock part. Improvised weapon (-4 to penalty, range increment probably 2 squares10 feet . Throwing a PC? Didn't see rules for that, except maybe in Iron Heroes...

Do tell me this pathetic damage thing? Last I checked a large sized creature could pick up what would be considered a rock to him, one about 12 to 18 inches in diameter and throw it. Now granted he might not be very good at it. But then again I seem to remember that Ogres carry with them Huge Sized Clubs. Clubs if you check in the PHB can be thrown.

Lets not forgot that a rock of that size would at least do 1d8 damage plus the bonus of the Ogre's 24 strength at minimum. Now if we were to consider the club since it is 1d6 medium sized, that puts it about 2d10 huge sized plus the 24 strength mod (+7). I hardley consider either to be pathetic.

As for throwing another character this only takes a little creativity. We could look at a "body" as a approximately the same size as the club the ogre uses. So we throw in the -4 penalty for lack of proficiency in "body" but we consider the damage about the same. Yes the ogre must make a grapple check to do this but considering size and strength I can see this happening. Like picking up the cleric and throwing it at the wizard.

And you could argue the weight of the cleric in this matter. If you wish I would offer a standard 10ft range increment as for throwing anything not made to be thrown.

protectionfromnormalmissiles!

This does not work against the boulder's thrown by giants last I checked. And ogres are classified as giants for that purpose. It wouldn't work against a PC being thrown at the wizard either.

I would like to reiterate that this is all done with a standard CR ogre right out of MM 1 3.5ed.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

Things.

Ogres carry Greatclubs, noticeably the worst of the 2H Martial Weapons. The weapons are large, not huge, and deal 2d8 base weapon damage. They cannot be thrown. A regular club would deal 1d8 damage.

Ogres don't have rock throwing. They do come with a javelin though. +1 attack, d8+5 damage. Wizards tend to have around +2 AC from Dexterity and +4 from Mage Armor, putting our PC at AC 16 at level 1, making him relatively safe even then.

Protection from Arrows grants DR 10/magic versus all ranged weapons, preventing a total of 10*CL damage (100 max).

What you have put forth is not a stock ogre from the MM.

 

[Jack99]

*) Well, the rock part. Improvised weapon (-4 to penalty, range increment probably 2 squares10 feet . Throwing a PC? Didn't see rules for that, except maybe in Iron Heroes...

Do tell me this pathetic damage thing? Last I checked a large sized creature could pick up what would be considered a rock to him, one about 12 to 18 inches in diameter and throw it. Now granted he might not be very good at it. But then again I seem to remember that Ogres carry with them Huge Sized Clubs. Clubs if you check in the PHB can be thrown.

Lets not forgot that a rock of that size would at least do 1d8 damage plus the bonus of the Ogre's 24 strength at minimum. Now if we were to consider the club since it is 1d6 medium sized, that puts it about 2d10 huge sized plus the 24 strength mod (+7). I hardley consider either to be pathetic.

As for throwing another character this only takes a little creativity. We could look at a "body" as a approximately the same size as the club the ogre uses. So we throw in the -4 penalty for lack of proficiency in "body" but we consider the damage about the same. Yes the ogre must make a grapple check to do this but considering size and strength I can see this happening. Like picking up the cleric and throwing it at the wizard.

And you could argue the weight of the cleric in this matter. If you wish I would offer a standard 10ft range increment as for throwing anything not made to be thrown.



This does not work against the boulder's thrown by giants last I checked. And ogres are classified as giants for that purpose. It wouldn't work against a PC being thrown at the wizard either.

I would like to reiterate that this is all done with a standard CR ogre right out of MM 1 3.5ed.

I am not quite sure where to start.

A normal Ogre has a BAB of +3. Since throwing something is dex-based (in 3.5), an Ogre has +2 to hit (8 dex) with a ranged weapon. Now, if it is a improvised range weapon, as you suggest, it would make a total of -2 to hit. Sure, the Ogre might do decent damage if he hits, but what are the odds. From +8 normal melee to hit, to -2. I doubt he will threaten the flying wizard much. Sure, its a funny idea (which I think I did in one of my campaigns, but hardly effective, if you follow the rules. Quite pathetic actually. Especially since no matter what, it won't be able to throw a body at the range a wizard can fly and cast spells.

As for protection from normal missiles, I believe thats the 2e name. Since we are talking 3e, it's protection from Arrows, and it gives you DR/10 against ranged weapon. I am not aware of an official ruling concerning giants' stones, so I do not see why it shouldn't work. A stone is an improvised weapon afaik.

Cheers

 

[The Little Raven]

You argument would lead me to believe that a short sword and a longsword are exactly the same only the difference is length.

Um... no.

A lance is just a spear. Look it up. In fact, the word lance comes from the same root as "launch," because lances were originally throwing spears like javelins. It wasn't until later in history that they became associated with horsemanship (and even then, they were still used by footman).

A short sword and a longsword are used differently, as a short sword is a thrusting weapon and the longsword is a slashing weapon.

 

[AllisterH]

The ogre example highlights why Fly is problematic in 3E but wasn't in earlier editions.

If you look at the MM1, notice how many stock creatures are actually unable to deal with *FLIGHT* especially at CR lower than 15. At best, they're like the ogre or they have much smaller range than the wizard.

This was because 3.x basically copied the monsters from 1E/2E but didn't take into account that Flight in 1E/2E was much less common among wizards (the rules for knowing the spell) AND much less commonly cast (again, with no easy ability to bypass spell slots, few 5th level mages would actually HAVE the Fly spell memorized in 1e/2e)