Forked Thread: Rate WotC as a company: 4e Complete?

[Jack99]

It's superior to what's going to be the 4E approach as well, with a class for every day of the year, based on the flimsiest of flim flam concepts, more thematically void rubbish which we saw a preview of with 3E. "Classes" with no real theme or concept beyond it's crunch - like the warlord but worse. That's gonna suck.

Now, tells us how you really feel about 4e. Don't hold back. Let it all out.

 

[rounser]

Now, tells us how you really feel about 4e. Don't hold back. Let it all out.

I'm just giving you the heads-up on where the design direction is obviously headed. But don't let that rain on your parade, you probably love hexblades and warblades and mystic theurges, so it'll probably be right up your alley.

 

[Jack99]

I'm just giving you the heads-up on where the design direction is obviously headed. But don't let that rain on your parade, you probably love hexblades and warblades and mystic theurges, so it'll probably be right up your alley.

Wrong on all 3 accounts. I have never played, nor wanted to play anything non-core.

 

[Fenes]

Wrong on all 3 accounts. I have never played, nor wanted to play anything non-core.

Too bad. Tome of Battle is very good, and has some similarities to 4E.

 

[CountPopeula]

And I have no problem seeing it as reasonably complete... as a new game carving out its own niche. But not D&D.

This, I think, is the problem people are having with 4e. The whole "It's not complete" is more "it's different."

4e does feel a lot more like a new system with the D&D name than a continuation of D&D. But that happens, and I think the system should be judged on its merit. Rules evolve and games change. NFL Football is far different than the game Harvard and Yale played in the late 19th century, but it is still football.

Interestingly, football fans have a similar reaction to rules changes as D&D fans. Google "horse-collar tackle" if you don't believe me. And older fans generally talk about how the game isn't the same as it was when they were younger.

But the NFL Red Grange played in is still the same NFL today, even with the restructuring, the AFL merger, the addition of the Super Bowl, helmets and shoulder pads, the forward pass, instant replay challenges and the two-point conversion.

The advantage to having a huge IP like D&D is that you can sell a lot of copies on the name. A LOT of copies. The disadvantage is that people have an idea in their head of what the game "is" already.

 

[Jack99]

Too bad. Tome of Battle is very good, and has some similarities to 4E.

I know, I own(ed) most books made by WotC. I used ToB for my NPC's, but my players never made a character from it, nor did I ever play one myself.

Cheers

 

[VanRichten]

Ogres carry Greatclubs, noticeably the worst of the 2H Martial Weapons. The weapons are large, not huge, and deal 2d8 base weapon damage. They cannot be thrown. A regular club would deal 1d8 damage.

Ogres don't have rock throwing. They do come with a javelin though. +1 attack, d8+5 damage. Wizards tend to have around +2 AC from Dexterity and +4 from Mage Armor, putting our PC at AC 16 at level 1, making him relatively safe even then.

First I would like to thank you for joining in on this debate. I find 4E fans to be quite funny. I offer them a concept of something they could have done in 3E and they utterly tout it as impossible. Yet supposedly in the 4E system it is possible.

I particarly liked "They cannot be thrown.". Please do tell where it says they cannot. Are we to say they cannot possibly throw it?

I even enjoyed "Ogres don't have rock throwing". Please tell me where this matters. Are you saying an Ogre cannot pick up a rock and throw it?

Guys I understand that you might no longer be fans of 3E and are now huge fans of 4E. However I give you this much. As much as you refer to us 3E fans not knowing enough about 4E I think you should look at yourself in reference to 3E for the same.

We all argue that between both systems. In essence they both have goods and bads. Just because I don't like 4E as a D&D system does not make it a bad system.

But do me a favor to all the guys who want to argue on that level. If you want to fight, then do your research. Without it is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Yeah you may be armed, but not well.

 

[AllisterH]

Ogres carry Greatclubs, noticeably the worst of the 2H Martial Weapons. The weapons are large, not huge, and deal 2d8 base weapon damage. They cannot be thrown. A regular club would deal 1d8 damage.

Ogres don't have rock throwing. They do come with a javelin though. +1 attack, d8+5 damage. Wizards tend to have around +2 AC from Dexterity and +4 from Mage Armor, putting our PC at AC 16 at level 1, making him relatively safe even then.

But do me a favor to all the guys who want to argue on that level. If you want to fight, then do your research. Without it is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Yeah you may be armed, but not well.

Er, I think you might want to read the rest of the thread. Seriously, improvised weapons are NOT a viable option.

Like I said, 3E uses the same spells as 1e/2e, but the underlying assumptions in 1e/2e give vastly different results.

Fly in 1e/2e - Not broken
Fly in 3.x - Definitely broken.

 

[Fenes]

In the average dungeon or building, flight doesn't help much - unless the DM is fond of having lots of very high ceilings. That alone covers most of the situations where flight may be overpowered.

And outdoor encounters? If they are not ready for flight, so what? You still have 5 levels where you can hassle the players with overland "random encounters".

 

[billd91]

This, I think, is the problem people are having with 4e. The whole "It's not complete" is more "it's different."

At the risk of repeating myself too much, the differences make it incomplete as D&D in my book. Just like a BLT could still be a decent sandwich worth eating without the tomato, it would be an incomplete sandwich if it was passing itself off as a BLT.

And then, of course, the question comes up whether it's worth waiting for it to be completed. I'll have an answer after I play it a few more times.