Forked Thread: Rate WotC as a company: 4e Complete?

[Dinkeldog]

Yes, and with the age-old, and very untruthful 'A Good DM can design games around it.'

Some things break the game, no matter how many backflips the players expect the DM to do.

I remember from 10th level on, every space the bad guys occupied was "Hallowed" with prevention from teleport.

Honestly, I don't see 4E as incomplete. Instead, I see several of the roles better delineated.

 

[pemerton]

If the players are breaking the game and the DM can't control it to the point of saying "hey, we're removing Fly", then there are much bigger problems than any game can fix.

I mean, seriously, you guys that had repeated problems with Fly being abused... did the DM just complain about it and the players ignore?

This comment assumes that the GM has a degree of power in the gaming group that is not true for all groups (and is not always healthy in those groups for which it is the case). At least some players, when they sign on to a game of D&D playing a 5th level Wizard, are signing onto a game in which Fly is available.

I think its better for the game itself to be designed so as to be functional out of the box.

(D&D is not the only game that has trouble with low-level fly - in my experience, it's also a big problem in Rolemaster and HARP.)

 

[jadrax]

(D&D is not the only game that has trouble with low-level fly - in my experience, it's also a big problem in Rolemaster and HARP.)

Placing limits on Fly spells in a Rolemaster game that revolved around aerial supremacy still stands out as one of the most bitched at moves I have ever made as a GM.

 

[pemerton]

Placing limits on Fly spells in a Rolemaster game that revolved around aerial supremacy still stands out as one of the most bitched at moves I have ever made as a GM.

My current RM game (27th level and coming to its climax) has a flying Warrior-Mage as one of the PCs. At about 12th level, when it became obvious that Fly was going to become the tactically most important feature of play, we canvassed toning it down but the player of that PC wanted to leave it in place. At 27th level it's even more important.

In future I'd certainly change it a bit!

 

[Andor]

Again I'll ask. How did 4e fix fly?

It's still there. Levitate is not only still there but it has horizontal movement now.

4e did exactly bupkis to change Flyings role in combat, they merely ganked any non-combat utility the spell had.

Yay.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

If the players are breaking the game and the DM can't control it to the point of saying "hey, we're removing Fly", then there are much bigger problems than any game can fix.

I mean, seriously, you guys that had repeated problems with Fly being abused... did the DM just complain about it and the players ignore?

The problem with Fly is that the only way to remove the issues with it is to basically say "Yeah, you can't get Fly. It doesn't exist in this setting."

There are times when flying works. Like when you're in a flying machine in Eberron. But when you can cast fly - and easily - then there's an issue.

 

[delericho]

The problem with Fly is that the only way to remove the issues with it is to basically say "Yeah, you can't get Fly. It doesn't exist in this setting."

That's simply not true. Changing it to a Personal-range spell removes the problems almost completely - the Wizard can no longer cast it on the whole party, and so they can't use it to bypass encounters completely (and if the encounter is such that a single flying Wizard defeats it without breaking a sweat, then that's at least as much a problem with the encounter as with the spell).

If that's still deemed too powerful, raise the level of the spell to 4th. This firstly delays any problems caused by the spell, and also vastly increases the cost of a wand containing the spell, which further minimises any damage that that might cause.

 

[Intense_Interest]

That's simply not true. Changing it to a Personal-range spell removes the problems almost completely - the Wizard can no longer cast it on the whole party, and so they can't use it to bypass encounters completely (and if the encounter is such that a single flying Wizard defeats it without breaking a sweat, then I'm sorry, but that's a bad encounter).

I'm glad that my encounter design for a group that uses Swords & Sorcery that is defeated by Superheros was merely my own (many) terrible mistakes.

If that's still deemed too powerful, raise the level of the spell to 4th. This firstly delays any problems caused by the spell, and also vastly increases the cost of a wand containing the spell, which further minimises any damage that that might cause.

"Put it off for later" only works when the campaign ends directly after its use.

 

[delericho]

I'm glad that my encounter design for a group that uses Swords & Sorcery that is defeated by Superheros was merely my own (many) terrible mistakes.

You're right, that was offensive. I'm sorry.

 

[delericho]

...my encounter design for a group that uses Swords & Sorcery that is defeated by Superheros...

If you're playing a "Swords & Sorcery" style game, rather than 3e's default high-fantasy assumptions, then presumably you know you're going to need to make some changes to the game to make it work. In the particular case of fly, this should include things like equipping your Ogres with missile weapons and the feats to use them effectively (I recommend swapping those greatclubs for either spears or tridents and shields, and swapping out the weapon focus likewise), providing enemy spellcasters with sorceries of their own, and ensuring that your foes make use of available terrain to ensure they're not fighting in locations where the PC Wizard can just take to the air and blast away with impunity.

"Put it off for later" only works when the campaign ends directly after its use.

Have you tried altering fly to make it a Personal-range 4th level spell? If not, I suggest you do, because you may well find the combination of the two changes fixes, rather than just delays, the problems you have been seeing - it does restrict the party to only the one flying 'superhero', and it also makes even that a much more costly investment.