Forked Thread: Rate WotC as a company: 4e Complete?

[Maggan]

But I don't see WotC necessarily breaking the dungeon crawl trend anytime soon...It's just easier to write these types of adventures.

They also sell much better than non-dungeon crawl adventures, at least traditionally, which probably is one reason why WotC hangs on to the format.

/M

 

[Vocenoctum]

Yeah, that's the problem there. Once the party can invest in a wand of fly, they can basically have everyone flying as much of the time as is useful. This does indeed bypass a great many encounters.

I guess the thing for me is, it bypasses a great many sucky encounters.

So you're 5th level and managed to avoid the ogre encounter....fine. Who wanted to fight ogre's anyway? Oh, okay, the plot says the ogre's have satchels that contain rare herbs you need. Wait, the ogre's live in caves? Well fudge. At least you can fly over puddles, so your cool new robes don't get wet.

Okay, fine, now you've gotten your ogre weed, but have to fight your way into the castle to reach the altar at the top of the stairs.... oh wait, you have flight! You can bypass the castle full of archers and ballistae and those fel beasts...


Wait, is that it? Flight had to be banned because Gandalf didn't cast it on frodo?


Seriously, it's easy enough to pull Fly out of 3e if you don't want the high fantasy elements. For me it's more fun to stick to things that a 5th level wizard would want to do anyway. They talked about gameplay being more fun in the midlevels, well throwing your magical might around was part of that.

The DM knows the party has flight. The D&D WORLD knows mage's have Flight. It's high fantasy and I prefer it that way.

ETA: Most of this is just from my perspective of not having seen any flying abuse in my games.

 

[Jack Colby]

t just saddens me to see that they've taken the game in a direction that doesn't appeal to me and so many others, and that they've made so many decisions that have adversely affected their customers.

There's always someone (actually, a number of someones) who makes this exact point... every time a new edition is released. It says more about the person saying it than it does the game.

 

[Jack Colby]

I agree the adventures so far for 4e have been very railroady. The game seems almost designed with railroading in mind, because of how everything must be planned and balanced beforehand based on the party's level, etc. I do not, however, agree that making dungeon-based adventures leads to railroading. Dungeons are probably the most non-linear, non-railroady type of thing you can play in D&D, provided you understand the concept and use them properly. The major problem is: most current gamers don't.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

Dungeons are probably the most non-linear, non-railroady type of thing you can play in D&D, provided you understand the concept and use them properly. The major problem is: most current gamers don't.

Care to enlighten the us, the humble plebs?

 

[Andor]

ETA: Most of this is just from my perspective of not having seen any flying abuse in my games.

*snicker* I once had a GM ban me from flying. In any way. With any character. In any system.

On topic I'm still waiting on a definition of 'complete' as applied to RPGs...

 

[delericho]

I guess the thing for me is, it bypasses a great many sucky encounters.

Undoubtedly. Unfortunately, it also bypasses a lot of interesting encounters, and probably does so a little too early in the campaign. (Please bear in mind that I'm a pro-3e kind of guy, but I do see some flaws in the system. I do think the easy access to fly in 3e is a weakness, although not a massive one.)

So you're 5th level and managed to avoid the ogre encounter....fine. Who wanted to fight ogre's anyway? Oh, okay, the plot says the ogre's have satchels that contain rare herbs you need.

I think that's the crux of it. Fly allows the PCs to skip some encounters, but it doesn't allow them to simply bypass the DM's entire plot - if there's something they need from a specific encounter, then they're going to have to find a way to deal with that encounter (and if they choose to sneak in and steal the herbs, rather than fight the Ogres directly, well good for them. That can be fun too).

There's a much bigger problem with scry-buff-teleport, but that really comes about at much higher levels, and anyway the game features a whole bunch of defences that the bad guys really should be using to prevent it.

Seriously, it's easy enough to pull Fly out of 3e if you don't want the high fantasy elements. For me it's more fun to stick to things that a 5th level wizard would want to do anyway. They talked about gameplay being more fun in the midlevels, well throwing your magical might around was part of that.

Agreed, mostly. I would prefer fly to either be a more limited resource, or to only be readily available at slightly higher levels. YMMV, of course.

 

[delericho]

On topic I'm still waiting on a definition of 'complete' as applied to RPGs...

Well, clearly it must be a complete game, in that you can pick it up and play without any additional (rules) components, and in that there are no gaping holes in the rules (D&D 4e meets this criterion). It must also allow the PCs to adopt roles - I would argue that it should support a variety of roles, rather than just one, but I suppose that isn't strictly necessary (either way, D&D 4e meets this criterion).

Finally, if the game is expected to emulate a particular setting or genre, then it should include all of the key elements of that setting or genre (a Harry Potter RPG couldn't be complete without some sort of system for Quiddich, for example). Here, arguably, D&D 4e hits a problem, because while D&D has only ever really emulated D&D, there are certain key things that make up D&D, some of which are missing in 4e - specifically enchantment, summoning and illusion magic. (While the naming of the schools was added later, many of the spells existed even as far back as OD&D - audible glamer, phantasmal forces, monster summoning 1 and suggestion are all present in my copy of OD&D (1978, 2nd edition, reprint).)

Still, as I said in my first post in this thread, in my opinion, 4e is a complete game. It has some significant limitations, which will no doubt be filled in time, but I don't equate limitations with incompleteness necessarily.

 

[Vocenoctum]

*snicker* I once had a GM ban me from flying. In any way. With any character. In any system.

On topic I'm still waiting on a definition of 'complete' as applied to RPGs...

I gave my definitions earlier, so not sure what you're waiting on? Are you expecting the internet to agree on something? Because... it may be a while...

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I'm sorry, but it still blows my mind that people are defending the 3e fly.