Forked Thread:Secondary Ability > Cleric and Wizard Controll

[KarinsDad]

I don't think Wizard really has MAD. You don't need much at all to have all that you need for Spell Accuracy at level 21. In addition, wizard uses other abilities _far less_ than other classes and Wisdom aids a defense and boosts other powers.

Although, many Wizards might need a little MAD.

For example, Wisdom is good for Spell Accuracy. Charisma is good for Spell Focus. Dexterity is good for Arcane Reach.

All of these are feats that many players of Wizards would want if they could get them. Assuming a Wizard adds to Intelligence every single ability boost level and each of these sometimes, it leaves virtually no room left over for Str or Con and Fort saves.

There are also feats like Astral Fire, Dark Fury, and Raging Storm that probably require initial scores or a boost to non-Int ability scores.

Plus, armor/shield proficiencies tend to require Str and/or Con. A defensive Wizard might have all 6 abillity scores that he wants at least a 13 (or often higher) in.

 

[Goumindong]

Level 21 is a bit late if Clerics have better control features at levels 1 to 20 (2/3rds of the levels).

Additionally, the number of squares omitted via Spell Accuracy is limited to Wisdom modifier. So, more MAD for the Wizard. Clerics do not have this limitation. Allies are not enemies.

You only have this limitation if you need three stats to be effective, or if you need to have high scores in two primary stats. The wizard has none of these problems and only suffers from MAD if he decides to go for Orb/Staff Mastery and Arcane Reach.

This is because no attacks rely on wisdom and if no attacks rely on wisdom then it only needs to be adequate.

The Cleric that you have showed us claiming to have better control needs strength and wisdom both high because those two are needed to hit enemies. Which means it loses out on all the charisma based control additions that it does have.

17th level Encounter Enthrall vs. Titan's Crushing Fist. No contest here, in fact, no contest against any of the Wizard 17th level Encounter spells (against a single target, Ice Tomb is not really better because allies cannot target that foe).

Are you serious? You have

1 single target melee blind, an AoE immobilize that prevents attacks against you, a single target melee damage that prevents attacks against an ally. And an AoE Close Blast Push.

Preventing an attack against you, or one of your friends is a pain, but its not great control, because they will just move the damage to someone else.

Also note that the melee prevention doesn't stop status effect based attacks, or ongoing damage from being applied. Also Note, that if you immobilized a bunch of melee enemies then nothing changed. If you immobilize a bunch of ranged enemies they are probably gunning for your striker or controller.

Wizards get a single target ranged 20 STUN(that your friends can't attack them is slight anyway, your friends do not want to be attacking stunned enemies unless they cannot do anything else. This is because stunned enemies cannot take actions and you only gain combat advantage against them. Since you will have combat advantage against many other things, many other things will actually be able to do damage[and so be a more pressing need to be killed], and that a competent controller places a stun condition on an enemy that has not taken much damage and is not in danger of being taken out of the fight soon[so to have the greatest control effect], the restriction is not very limiting.)

A three target ranged 20 daze(with an attack bonus if you only attack one)

An AoE immobilize which makes the area 5 times harder to walk through than normal. Going 2 squares requires 10 movement!

An AoE damage

(and lets not forget the close blast Push vs ref that the wizard gets at level 13 encounter)

 

[Goumindong]

All of these are feats that many players of Wizards would want if they could get them. Assuming a Wizard adds to Intelligence every single ability boost level and each of these sometimes, it leaves virtually no room left over for Str or Con and Fort saves.

Yes, if you stipulate that the player playing the wizard is an idiot the wizard will run into MAD problems.

These are the feats and abilities that require different stats that a wizard may want.

Hide Armor: Str 13, Con 13
Arcane Reach: Dex 14
Spell Accuracy: Wis +(I.E. Positive)
Spell Focus: Cha 12

Staff Mastery: CON+
Wand Mastery: Dex+
Orb Mastery: Wis+

O.K. so if we get rid of hide(its 1 AC) then we are looking at for a staff master, 12 cha(or 13 str for hide), 14 dex, lots of con, and lots of int and positive wisdom.

For a wand its lots of dex, lots of int, and 12 charisma.

For an orb is 14 dex, 12 cha, lots of int, lots of wisdom.

You never ever need to dedicate level up attribute bonuses to anything but your intelligence and your mastery score.

 

[KarinsDad]

For the moment, i am just going to address this by saying that you need to stop being disingenuous. Which is to say, it would be appreciated if you stopped lying indirectly.

If you continue with these types of statements, I will ask the moderators to step in.

I say this because Avenging Flame does indeed have a slight control feature. And so that makes it a "controlling power".

But its also str vs AC which means MAD for the Cleric.

But its also a melee attack which means the Wizard has 9 more squares of range.

But its also a daily power while the wizard power you are comparing it to is an encounter power. That means that the wizard power, being able to be used roughly 4 times per day, stops 4 times as many actions from occurring. As well, Avenging Flame can prevent NO actions at all if the enemy decides to eat the 5 ongoing damage(which it might as well do).

I was trying to compare Encounter with Encounter and Daily with Daily and made a mistake. Sue me.

These powers are not in any way comparable. One is a debuff/heal, and the other is damage. Freezing Cloud(the absolute worst of the wizard 1 dailies) is area denial and damage. Beacon of Hope is a leading power. Debuffs and Buffs are leading powers. Area and Action denial are controlling powers. There is a difference.

Debuff is control. It limits the enemy in some fashion. The designers even claim that damage is control.

Already explained how AoE move is better than single target move, that it provokes is nice, but you do not get to place the enemy, and you do not get to place friendlies

Yup. But, you do get to target someone who will provoke if they move. And, you do get that target quasi-out of combat for a round. That is just as much control as Slow.

And, tell that to the Blood Wizard that takes two feats, just to get Cause Fear.

Good lord no. While its true that none of the Cleric spells should be better control than the best control spells the wizard has, NONE ARE.

Who's "lying" now?

How are any of the 17th level Wizard Encounter powers better control than Enthrall (which btw goes against Will saves)?

Sure, Crushing Titan's Fist has better range. Rarely a factor. Sure Crushing Titan's Fist can affect the area, but who cares? It tends to only be used against targets away from the party because it cannot segregate enemies from allies. If used close to the party, it can hinder party movement as much as it can enemy movement. It has one use: damage some targets far away and hinder them from getting close to the party for a round. Enthrall has nearly this much utility for that purpose, plus has the utility to immobilize a bunch of creatures within melee range.


Compare Thunderlance to Thunderous Word. Sure, Thunderlance can be acquired 4 levels earlier, but that is its main claim to fame. At higher levels where PCs can have most any Encounter power that they want, Thunderous Word is preferable to Thunderlance.

13 Encounter 4D6 push creatures 4 in 5 Blast vs.
17 Encounter 3D6 push enemies 3+Cha in 5 Blast and allows allies to shift 1

The extra D6 damage of Thunderlance is white noise compared to the control utility gains that Thunderous Word has (can be used anywhere, extra push and party shifting).

Sure, it's a higher level power. But in 4E, that just means that Clerics have to wait a bit to get it. With regard to Push Control, the Cleric power is better.

In the area of Push Control, Wizards have Thunderwave, Spectral Ram, and Thunderlance. Clerics have Turn Undead, Split the Sky, Divine Power, and Thunderous Word.

Wizards are the better Push Controllers, no doubt about it. But, Clerics have the best Push Control Power.

My claim is and has been that Clerics sometimes get the best Control Power for a given control type. Sure, they might have to wait to get it, but they still get it.

The Wizard has no Encounter Push Control power that compares to Thunderous Word.

NONE.

You're complaining that Flame Strike(that is the lvl 19 one right?) does more AoE than Disintegrate. Whop-do-do, because its not a better control power than Evard's, and Its the "i could use some hefty single target damage" option rather than the "i need area denial" action.

I never mentioned Flame Strike or Disintegrate. What are you talking about?

 

[KarinsDad]

You never ever need to dedicate level up attribute bonuses to anything but your intelligence and your mastery score.

Never ever? You are not running an Int 20 Wizard. Those type of Wizards have MAD out the ying yang.

There are more ways to design a PC in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.


PS. My Staff Wizard will never be upping his mastery score except on the automatic levels.

 

[Goumindong]

Never ever? You are not running an Int 20 Wizard. Those type of Wizards have MAD out the ying yang.

There are more ways to design a PC in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.


PS. My Staff Wizard will never be upping his mastery score except on the automatic levels.

Yes, you can always put your secondary stat in other stats if you want, but there is no good reason for it, and when doing so you are further showing that you have no MAD.

There is no situation where there are attributes that you want that cannot be achieved easier by sticking to one single secondary attribute and pushing that while starting the others higher.

I was trying to compare Encounter with Encounter and Daily with Daily and made a mistake.

No big deal

Debuff is control. It limits the enemy in some fashion. The designers even claim that damage is control.

No, Debuff is not control. Buff/Debuff is leading. Damage is a form of control, but not a very strong one. Its like the difference between a stun and an immobilize.

Yup. But, you do get to target someone who will provoke if they move. And, you do get that target quasi-out of combat for a round. That is just as much control as Slow.

Yes and no and why are you comparing it to slow?

And, tell that to the Blood Wizard that takes two feats, just to get Cause Fear.

Why would any blood wizard in their right mind take two feats to get cause fear so make enemies move(Its not a push/pull/slide, you do not get to decide where they end up), when they could use zero feats and thunderwave? Or Thunderlance(the level 13 encounter as strong as Thunderous Word), Bigbys Grasping Hand, Elemental Maw, or Confusion.

If you're going to spend two feats for something at least get "Own the Battlefield"

Who's "lying" now?

How are any of the 17th level Wizard Encounter powers better control than Enthrall (which btw goes against Will saves)?

Good lord, i've already explained this to you.

Crushing Fist. While the enemies you enthrall will feel free to attack your friends the enemies that are in or behind the area of a crushing fist simply cannot cover the distance. Even if you miss, a double move is not likely to get them out of the zone so they can attack people.

That means that enthralled enemies will attack your friends unless they hit and are melee enemies. Crushing Titan's Fisted enemies will attack your friends unless they are melee enemies.

One prevents attacks even if you miss. The other does not.

13 Encounter 4D6 push creatures 4 in 5 Blast vs.
17 Encounter 3D6 push enemies 3+Cha in 5 Blast and allows allies to shift 1

The extra D6 damage of Thunderlance is white noise compared to the control utility gains that Thunderous Word has (can be used anywhere, extra push and party shifting).

The Push on friendlies is stronger than allowing them to shift. As has already been explained

Wizards are the better Push Controllers, no doubt about it. But, Clerics have the best Push Control Power.

You've said it three times so it must be true? How about showing how the shift is stronger than the push? (A: its not)

In the area of Push Control, Wizards have Thunderwave, Spectral Ram, and Thunderlance. Clerics have Turn Undead, Split the Sky, Divine Power, and Thunderous Word.

No, Clerics have turn undead and Thunderous Word, OR Split the Sky and Divine Power.

Two are will attacks, two are str attacks. If you have decent str so that you can actually use Split the Sky and Divine power then Thunderous Word won't even be a decent sized push.

I never mentioned Flame Strike or Disintegrate. What are you talking about?

Allegory.

 

[Falling Icicle]

No they aren't. There is no way that anyone in their right mind could constue Clerics to be better controllers than wizards.

Keep it civil, please.

They have 2 powers that are marginally better at dealing AoE damage to enemies and have no significant control elements aside from that.

Please read the defintion of "controller" in the PHB, both in the role descrptions and in the Wizard class itself. Area effect damage (even if it has no side effects) is part of the "controller" role. It's not just a part, but a MAJOR part of that role. In fact, one of the Wizard builds is the war mage, which focuses on such spells rather than those that inflict debilitating effects or hamper enemies. And while clerics get many of these types of spells, we don't see Wizards getting any healing abilities - one of the defining features of the leader role.

And all of this is before you get into the wizard specific abilities and paragon paths which only apply to wizard powers(or now artificer powers, since they are arcane and have spells.)

Many people consider the best paragon path for the Wizard to be... the Divine Oracle. So much so that they're willing to multiclass as a Cleric to get it.

The two powers in question are Firestorm and Astral Storm. One of them does more damage because its "hit component" does higher damage, and one of them does more damage because it is all damage types and so ignores most resistances. Flamestrike is right out, its simply not better at damage than lower level wizard spells, let alone equal level wizard spells.

You're conveniently ignoring the main point I was making. All Cleric Area spells hit ONLY enemies. They can never, ever cause friendly fire. I've only been playing my 4e wizard for a short time, but I am already running into freindly fire issues with my spells. The enormity of this advantage can't be understated. It's not until 21st level that a Wizard can finally get a feat to at least partially remove this huge disadvantage. And even then, he can only omit a number of squares equal to his wisdom modifier. Cleric prayers ignore all allies, period, no matter how many. And he doesn't have to wait until 21st level, nor does he have to spend a feat, to have this extremely potent advantage.

But you don't have to look far to see that even low level wizard spells are better. Flaming Sphere(wizard daily 1) does 1d4+int/round in an area 1... but you can move it... and you can sustain it with a minor action... and you can make 2d6+int attacks continually as a standard. Over the course of a battle. The flaming sphere will be doing more damage than the flame strike simply because the flame strikes damage peters off after an average of 1.8 rounds(or something).

The same can be said comparing Flaming Sphere to many other Wizard spells, even of higher level. Also, you compare alot of apples and oranges to make your points. If you want an unbiased comparison, compare Astral Storm to Meteor Swarm, the most directly comparable power, not to Necrotic Web or some other, very different spells. There's no question that Astral Storm is superior in every way to Meteor Storm. It would be like giving the Wizard a healing spell far better than a healing spell the cleric gets at the same level. It's just not right.

 

[Goumindong]

Please read the defintion of "controller" in the PHB, both in the role descrptions and in the Wizard class itself. Area effect damage (even if it has no side effects) is part of the "controller" role

"Aside".

The Cleric has a few good damage AoEs as dailies. The Wizard gets good damage AoEs as Encounters. If there is a question of "which does more AoE" the answer is clearly and easily Wizards. Because the ability to land an AoE once/day is not strong, you need to be abelt to do it alot, and consistantly.

E.G. In AoE Damage, Wizards get more AoE damage at level 13 with encounter poowers than Clerics ever get.

Many people consider the best paragon path for the Wizard to be... the Divine Oracle. So much so that they're willing to multiclass as a Cleric to get it.

I am not sure what that has to do what we are discussing. That only makes wizards better since they can stack up on attacks versus will in order to exploit the level 16 ability(as well as use it to reroll things like Prismatic Beams)

Clerics have a lot of attacks against will as well. But they never gain more benefit out of landing the attack than wizards. Especially with the Orb of Imposition.

That and Foresight, but only one party member needs to have it.

What the combination does, and this is a boon for wizards and not for Clerics because Clerics do not get the Orb of Imposition and stunning(save ends powers). Is use it to reroll an attack(Adding wand master on top of this is nice as well) to make sure the hit hits, then make the enemy fail its save until the combat is over.

But the Wizard Paragon Paths simply do not work for a Cleric. And while the warlord paragon paths are pretty much gravy for anyone, none of them let the Cleric be a better controller.

You're conveniently ignoring the main point I was making. All Cleric Area spells hit ONLY enemies. They can never, ever cause friendly fire. I've only been playing my 4e wizard for a short time, but I am already running into freindly fire issues with my spells.

The tell your friends that you don't want to hurt them.

Get a high initiative so you can lay down your zones before your friends can get in the way.

Pick Wizard powers that do not have these problems

E.G.

Ray of Frost, Cloud of Daggers, Magic Missile, Chill Strike, Force Orb, Ray of Enfeeblement, Flaming Sphere, Fire Shroud, Icy Rays, Bigbys Icy Grasp, Stinking Cloud, Wall of Fog, Lightning Bolt, Spectral Ram, Mordenkaninens Sword, Wall of Fire, Lightning Serpent, Mesmric Hold, Bigbys Grasping Hands, Blast of Cold, Otilukes Resiliant Sphere, Prismatic Beams, Wall of Ice, Force Volley, Icy Tomb, Disintegrate, Chain Lightning, Thunderclap, Maze, Prismatic Spray, Black Fire, Confusion, Force Cage, Legions Hold

Paragon:
Battle Mage; Forceful Retort, Closing Spell
Blood Mage: Blood Pulse(since push is voluntary as is move, this doesn't have to effect allies), Destructive Salutation(Possibly the best power in the game)
Spellstorm Mage: Maelstrom of Chaos
Wizard of the Spiral tower: The One Sword, Corellons Blade

These powers span the entire run of the wizards career encompasing both single target, multi-target, and AoE

The same can be said comparing Flaming Sphere to many other Wizard spells, even of higher level. Also, you compare alot of apples and oranges to make your points. If you want an unbiased comparison, compare Astral Storm to Meteor Swarm, the most directly comparable power, not to Necrotic Web or some other, very different spells. There's no question that Astral Storm is superior in every way to Meteor Storm. It would be like giving the Wizard a healing spell far better than a healing spell the cleric gets at the same level. It's just not right.

No, Astral Storm is a burst damage that also does continuing damage. Necrotic Web is a burst damage that also does continuing damage. Elemental Maw is pure damage.

So if you are using it for burst damage you should compare it to elemental maw. If you are using it for continuing damage you should compare it to necrotic web.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, you can always put your secondary stat in other stats if you want, but there is no good reason for it, and when doing so you are further showing that you have no MAD.

There is no situation where there are attributes that you want that cannot be achieved easier by sticking to one single secondary attribute and pushing that while starting the others higher.

No good reason? Hardly. The +Con Mod boost to Defense for a Staff Wizard once per encounter is extremely weak unless one has a really good Con. There are many other good reasons to boost other stats instead, especially for a 20 Int Wizard that has few other decent stats.

You are mistaken here. One does not need to boost a secondary stat every single time. There are builds where that works well, but not all good builds are that restricted.

No, Debuff is not control. Buff/Debuff is leading. Damage is a form of control, but not a very strong one. Its like the difference between a stun and an immobilize.

There is no such thing as "leading" in the game system. Apparently, you made that term up out of whole cloth.

The four basic functions in combat are (PHB page 15):

control and area offense,
defense,
healing and support,
focused offense

When a Wizard uses Magic Missile, he is doing focused offense. He is not doing either his control or his area offense.

And, there is overlap in the roles (page 52). As a general rule of thumb:

Anytime an enemy is hindered including Debuffs, that's Control.
Offensive AoEs are Area Offense.
Defense Buffs and Tempory Hit Point Buffs are Defense.
Healing is Healing.
Other Buffs are Support.
Single Target damaging attacks are Focused Offense.

Debuff is given to Leader PCs, but it is still control. It hinders the enemies To Hit or Damage or whatever.

Marking is control because it hinders enemy movement (or damages the enemy).

Why would any blood wizard in their right mind take two feats to get cause fear so make enemies move(Its not a push/pull/slide, you do not get to decide where they end up), when they could use zero feats and thunderwave? Or Thunderlance(the level 13 encounter as strong as Thunderous Word), Bigbys Grasping Hand, Elemental Maw, or Confusion.

Again with the "in their right mind" comment. Are you really so confident that your way is the only right way?

The trick here is at range. Thunderwave and Thunderlance cannot be used at decent range and affect allies (a big downside to this tactic because it will seriously harm any allies in the blast). Bigby's Grasping hand does not push, so does not have good synergy here. It also cannot be done until level 15. Elemental Maw is great for this, but cannot be used until level 25 (instead of 11). By level 25, it makes sense to use Elemental Maw and to retrain the second feat. Confusion is level 27, the movement does not occur until the next round (which means the Wizard may or may not be able to do it). By then, there are many other good options.

Sure, all of these can be used. None of them do this good of damage against the main target at level 11 and at range which is the purpose of the trick and worth the feats.

A Bolstering Blood Pulse and a Blood Action Action Point Cause Fear causing one enemy in the area that gets hit with both attacks taking (8+Cha)D6 + (6+Cha)*2D10 + Int + 10 + damage and the rest that get hit taking 2D6+2D10+Int damage. So, ~109 to maybe ~128 (Cha depending) on one target (plus potential opportunity attacks and other issues like marked) and ~23 on the rest. The idea is to seriously damage one stronger target and damage a bunch of others and the one that is seriously damaged is at least 6+Cha squares away.

All at level 11.

I do not think that a player of a Blood Mage using two feats to acquire this ability plus the ability to do Healing Word once per day plus the Religion Skill is necessarily "out of his mind".

If you're going to spend two feats for something at least get "Own the Battlefield"

Own the Battlefield is a great option here. However, it has some issues. First, it cannot be acquired until level 22. The synergy above can be done at level 11. Second, it requires a Str of 13. Although definitely doable, that adds a little MAD to most Wizards (many of whom might dump Str down to 8 otherwise). Third, it shifts targets which means that allies do not get Opportunity Attacks.

All in all, a viable option. It just means that this particular tactic of doing this type of attack at range is delayed 11 levels. I do not think that a player who does not want to delay 11 levels (25 to 30 or more gaming sessions for many groups) is necessarily "out of his mind".

Good lord, i've already explained this to you.

And, your explanation is incomplete and hence incorrect yet again.

Crushing Fist. While the enemies you enthrall will feel free to attack your friends the enemies that are in or behind the area of a crushing fist simply cannot cover the distance. Even if you miss, a double move is not likely to get them out of the zone so they can attack people.

You mean that all enemies do not have ranged attacks?

Enthrall both immobilizes and prevents attacks against the caster if it hits. Crushing Titan's Fist merely immobilizes if it hits.

Enthrall can be used around other PCs. Titan's Fist cannot without hitting them (until the proper feat at higher level).

That means that enthralled enemies will attack your friends unless they hit and are melee enemies. Crushing Titan's Fisted enemies will attack your friends unless they are melee enemies.

Enthralled enemies cannot move or attack the caster. Having enemies who cannot move or attack one of the PCs is just as much control as having enemies with restricted movement, especially at higher levels where enemies tend to have more options.

One prevents attacks even if you miss. The other does not.

One might prevent attacks on a miss. It won't prevent ranged attacks within range. It might not prevent attacks if an opponent is at near edge and can charge out of it. It might not prevent attacks if enemies can Teleport (of which there are a fair number in the MM). And, it will prevent PC melee attackers from getting to enemies as much as it prevents enemies from getting to PCs.

One of the issues with difficult terrain is that it sometimes hinders PCs as much as it does NPCs.

Plus, you are thinking two dimensionally. There are many flying foes at 17th level who might be able to fly over it.

The Push on friendlies is stronger than allowing them to shift. As has already been explained

You've said it three times so it must be true? How about showing how the shift is stronger than the push? (A: its not)

HAHAHAHA

Pushing allies might be more beneficial in some rare circumstances than sliding them, but that means that the allies also took 4D6 plus Int damage as well and they cannot be slided towards the caster. The Cleric power is huge compared to the Wizard one because it pushes enemies a further distance, it slides allies, and it does not damage allies.

Any argument that pushing allies while damaging them at the same time is preferable most of the time is just flat out bogus.

Are you purposely being argumentative and obtuse when you are wrong?

Cause your logic is totally whacky.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wizards get a single target ranged 20 STUN(that your friends can't attack them is slight anyway, your friends do not want to be attacking stunned enemies unless they cannot do anything else. This is because stunned enemies cannot take actions and you only gain combat advantage against them.

Only if it hits.

Stunning one enemy is great control.

But, what have you really accomplished if you use Ice Tomb? 50% chance of one enemy damaged and he goes from 50% chance to hit to 0% chance to hit.

So one encounter in four, Ice Tomb damages and helps with control. One encounter in four, it damages, stops movement, but the foe was going to miss anyway. And, two encounters in four, it doesn't do anything.

Compared to multiple enemies potentially being damaged and unable to move and unable to attack the caster and possibly unable to attack anyone else.

There are times when Ice Tomb misses. But with multiple rolls, Enthrall might miss the first enemy and still hit others. On average, Enthral will hit more often more rounds for more damage and will affect combat more because some of those foes will not be able to attack back for that round.

Many potentially damaged and partially controlled versus one potentially damaged and fully controlled (and typically not able to be damaged by most allies). Sure, you might stop one guy with Ice Tomb for a round. You also protect that one guy from most further damage if you do for a round.

Single target attacks are great if they hit, but not very controlling if they miss. Multiple attack rolls often make up in quantity what they lack in quality.

All in all, Enthral typically has more utility and average control than Ice Tomb because it affects more NPCs in the lifetime of the caster.

It also does not prevent allies from attacking those immobile targets like Ice Tomb typically does.


You are looking at this too much in black and white, and assuming that attacks always hit or always affect combat. They don't. Because of that, multiple foe attacks have a signficant edge over single foe attacks.