D&D 4E Forked Thread: Some Thoughts on 4e

[Lacyon]

Its not about time in the game world. Its all about the actual time spent on scrub encounters in the real world. A fight we had with a group of kobolds outside near a waterfall took 15 rounds to finish. Not much time in the game at all-but after an hour and a half grinding on a non-climactic battle our eyes had glazed over and we (the players) were mentally fatigued by the whole thing.

If that's the encounter I'm thinking of, it's pretty atypical...

 

[James McMurray]

If they were standing on a magic circle on the other side of some brush it's from KotS. 15 rounds is definitely too long. It took us nowhere near that to kill them, but it helped that they were kind enough to buynch together on their magic circle so our wizard's area spell could hurt a bunch at once.

 

[James McMurray]

I notice you say "defenders" (with the 's' indicating multiples being the point here). Mind if I ask what the makup of your group is?

It depends on the campaign, but the overall gist is that monsters almost never give someone a free attack. In your example, the monster would probably have attacked the fighter rather than try to hit the ranger at -2 to hit and grant a free shot to the fighter.

Maybe it's a tactical difference. We usually only do the "who hit me last" dance if the monster is unintelligent. Even a kobold knows enough not to choose to be stabbed in the face.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Can you provide more information? I agree 15 rounds on some kobolds is way too long.

Our party makeup for this fiasco ( this is the group that TPK'd on irontooth in the next encounter) from what I remember:

Feypact Warlock-tiefling
Archer Ranger-Eladrin ( EDIT: not present due to elf cleric not being able to play)
TH sword fighter-Dragonborn
Cleric-Elf (EDIT: not present)
Rogue-halfling

Cleric-human (EDIT: replaced ranger due to elven cleric's absence)-Not usually part of the group.

we didn't have a wizard with this group to AOE minions. The dragonborn got a couple with the breath attack then we were having to pop the balloons one at a time. Very average rolls combined with all the real kobolds needing 5-6 hits each made this take forever.

 

[Verision]

Deleted

 

[James McMurray]

If you're flanked and you move, the fighter will hit you and stop you from moving. The ranger might also hit you. If you're flanked and you shift, the fighter will hit you and they'll both probablyshift to flank you again, perhaps even readying actions so they both get the flanking bonus still. Either way you still take damage, and none of the options can stop the ranger from attacking you. The best you can do is hope not to get stopped in your tracks by an 11 damage shot and deny the ranger a +2 to hit.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you're flanked and you shift, the fighter will hit you and they'll both probablyshift to flank you again, perhaps even readying actions so they both get the flanking bonus still.

Keep in mind that Readying is costly for a Fighter, since Combat Challenge uses an Immediate action, and a Readied action is an Immediate action, so he can't use both in the same round.

Similarly, Rangers tend to have a few Immediate action powers... though they're usually Encounter powers rather than something they can use every round like Combat Challenge. So it's less costly for the Ranger to Ready.

If you figure the Fighter's Readied an action, though, you may as well Shift - he'll have to decide between taking the Combat Challenge attack (which will prevent him using the action he's Readied), or passing over the chance at the Combat Challenge attack in order to keep his Readied action in hand...

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Any chance you'll answer my repeated question then? So we can be better equipped to understand one another?

The answer to your other question is called discourse. The reason I did not anwer your question is because it's irrelevant. So are the half dozen replies to this response. It's the Internet equivalent of gossip (i.e. stuff talked about and even used as "ammunition" for one side of a discussion, even though it really has nothing to do with the topic at hand"). In other words, you really did not need that question to be asked let alone answered. It's non-sequitor for you to understand me on the main topic. It's white noise. We both know it.

If someone likes or dislikes something about a game system, it is totally reasonable for a discussion on it. If you do not feel this way, why are you discussing?

Do you really see wizards that just cast Magic Missile repeatedly once they're out of encounters and dailies? Granted our wizards have usually been human so far, but even with only 2 at-will, MM is not always (I'd say rarely) the optimal choice.

It could be Ray of Frost or Magic Missile or Cloud of Daggers for a given Wizard.

The fact is that WotC gave every Wizard "a magical light crossbow" after declaring that they did not want Wizards to resort to using a crossbow after running out of spells. Mechanically, it's similar. Thematically, the only reason it is not similar is that one is called a ranged weapon and the other is called ranged magic. His point is still valid.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Climactic encounters with leaders and special forces (kobold SAS lol ) are different. These are the types of encounters that are more meaningful to the events in the campaign and thus worthy of more playing time.

Ending the threat is the heroic action needed. Coming to terms with whoever or whatever is behind the threat is the focus. Taking an extraordinary amount of game time to deal with the flunky encounters does not feel heroic.

What do you expect? The encounter you were is immediately before the Irontooth encounter. You're essentially taking on the whole Kobold/Goblin lair in a frontal assault! You're doing this because it will eliminate the Kobold threat that Winterhaven is facing...most would call this "acting heroically".

This encounter is supposed to be difficult. Remember the Mega Man games? When you got to the last level, you didn't just walk 5 feet and fight Dr. Wily, you had to blow your way through a whole army of minions in order to get to him. That's essentially what this encounter is...you have to fight your way through all those guys to get to Irontooth, who is the big bad guy that's the focus of this side-quest.

Kobolds are just the example for 1st level. As the campaign goes on the dynamics don't change. You still fight small groups of whatever you are fighting and taking a long time to do so.

Not true. My party and I have defeated Irontooth, gotten to level 2, and are now in the Keep proper. The encounters there, so far at least (we've explored all of the first level, and part of the second level), have been fairly short. You're usually dealing with only a half-dozen or so monsters, and with the new Utility powers we picked up, the new feats, the bonuses and the better understanding of our roles within the party, we're crushing them in just a couple rounds.

I will admit that the first few encounters were pretty large and involved, but the dungeon encounters are much shorter and less of a grind.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

It could be Ray of Frost or Magic Missile or Cloud of Daggers for a given Wizard.

The fact is that WotC gave every Wizard "a magical light crossbow" after declaring that they did not want Wizards to resort to using a crossbow after running out of spells. Mechanically, it's similar. Thematically, the only reason it is not similar is that one is called a ranged weapon and the other is called ranged magic. His point is still valid.

Really? I didn't realize that crossbows had area of effect, or that they could create a cloud that damaged anyone entering it, or that crossbows could push a group enemies several squares, or slow them. Why's our ranger using a longbow then, when he could use a crossbow??? [/sarcasm]

If you're going to just pick one At-Will from a class and then define the whole class by it, you're just being foolish. Is the Warlord's only fallback telling others to attack a target? No, that's just one ability. Do all Fighter powers push enemies? No, that's just one ability.

No one is forcing you as a wizard to take Magic Missile, just like they're not forcing you to use it. Want some more flavor to your powers so that you're not just "firing a crossbow"? Then take Thunderwave and spend some feats on heavier armor. Get close and clear the floor. Or take Scorching Burst so that you always have a good ranged AoE handy. These are the other things that Wizards do, besides their encounters and dailies...try using them once in a while and just maybe you'll get more enjoyment out of the game.

In fact, I would say that Magic Missile only offers two very minor bonuses. It does slightly higher base damage (2d4 vs 2d6...although because you're rolling two dice, MM will typically be more middling in power, whereas the others are more variable) and it has one of the longest ranges in the game. That's it though. It only strikes one target for a maximum of 2 extra damage, and doesn't create any effects. That's what a "Striker" does, and Wizards are "Controllers". The other abilities all give you lots of extra little bonuses that allow you to act more like a "Controller".