Forked Thread: What would you have done?

1600 XP for 6 PCs is a level 6+ encounter. With only 5 PCs it's 7+. The PCs will only win this encounter if they have something on their side to help them out like terrain, or a move advantage to get away, or something. When you trap them in immediate flanking position and have them outnumbered and outgunned, that's just a TPK in a box. I wouldn't think of putting my PCs through a level+4 encounter unless (a) they knew it was coming and were properly prepared, and (b) it was the only fight of the day so they knew they could blow all their dailies immediately.

Should they have done something different? Maybe. But IMO you shouldn't have put them up in that situation in the first place.
 

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What I don't get is how come it needs to be THAT difficult to be difficult. Interestingly this past Saturday I ran a game, 5 second level players showed up and I had a tough encounter planned, 6 Hobgoblin minions, 3 Archers and a 5th level Hobgoblin warlord NPC. Total XP for that fight was about 900, yet it was tough. The fighter, wizard, and rogue all went down at some point and it felt tooth and nail to the players. TPK was uttered once or twice.

From my end I saw they had it in the bag (in fact, much of their pain came from the Warlord critting with his flaming warhammer on the rogue and him failing all his saving throws to end the ongoing fire damage for a good 5 or six rounds. he burned while he bled out, even). Tough fights are FUN for both sides but I do not see how your players could even attempt something THAT hard.

Jay
 

Honestly, I think that the PCs should have been able to win this encounter, barring total crap rolls.

If they were able to move into a house, or even just get out of the death zone and use ranged attacks, they should have been okay.

I think that the encounter was a fair one to lay on the players. Tough fights are always the most rewarding ones (save awesome story-based ones), and you shouldn't shy away from them in the future.
 

1600 XP for 6 PCs is a level 6+ encounter. With only 5 PCs it's 7+. The PCs will only win this encounter if they have something on their side to help them out like terrain, or a move advantage to get away, or something. When you trap them in immediate flanking position and have them outnumbered and outgunned, that's just a TPK in a box. I wouldn't think of putting my PCs through a level+4 encounter unless (a) they knew it was coming and were properly prepared, and (b) it was the only fight of the day so they knew they could blow all their dailies immediately.

I keep hearing that (somebody else mentioned it on the WotC boards). The thing is, it is an average encounter for a 7th-level party--meaning they are expected to win barring some kind of outrageously bad luck.

I don't see it that way. I see it as an extremely hard (but appropriate) 2nd-level encounter. Since we were a player short, it became what roughly amounts to an extremely hard 3rd-level encounter. The rules support me on this (as they do you).
 

EDIT: Also, though I didn't reduce the encounter I did give my players a choice. At the onset of the battle (and twice later on when it started to get "hard") I asked them if they wanted me to bring in the missing PC. They repeatedly said "no, we want the XP to be divided 5 ways, not 6." In the end, even with a TPK looming over their heads, they only agreed to the last minute intervention of the Ranger when I promised to split the XP 5 ways regardless (the saving ranger only got two attacks off anyways).

I didn't notice this before. It indicates one of two things.
Either:
A) The party would not realize how hard this fight would be
or
B) They willingly decided to gamble their lives for XP.

If it's A) you can fix this next time by just stating it straight-up: "This encounter is really, really hard. It's likely that some, or even all, of you will die."

If it's B) then you have done nothing wrong. Don't listen to the people who say you should have balanced the encounter better, because clearly your players enjoy high-risk, high-reward encounters more. Eventually they will learn the tactics needed to be more successful in them.

-- 77IM
 

I'll have you know that I have not once called my players idiots or in any way demeaned them due to this game. The only reason I am such a hardass in this thread is because I understand the internet culture well enough to know that such provocative post nets more responses--such as the one you just posted. :P

Hey, I'm just responding to the information you've provided. The reason I criticize is that you didn't post this asking if you did something wrong, or how the situation could have been improved - you posted this looking for confirmation that your players were at fault for having such a difficult time. For going 'brain-dead', being 'idiot players', etc. You wanted it to be an 'exciting running battle'... and started by surrounding the PCs with an incredibly hard fight, with the only escape route through an unexplored area.

That's a bad encounter design as a DM, and blaming the players afterwards is in poor taste. Even if you aren't saying it to their face, referring to them repeatedly as 'idiots' definitely seems uncalled for.
Also, expecting more monsters in the houses is kinda stupid. All the monsters came OUTSIDE to fight. It's not like there were monsters in the buildings who somehow didn't here the epic battle taking place right in the middle of town square!

I can think of any number of reasons why there could be more monsters in the houses - especially with undead, who aren't always going to be drawn instantly to nearby battles. (Unlike more rational, humanoid enemies.)

Look, I'm not sure what response you are looking for here. You ask the questions: "Am I right? My players are idiots, right?"

If you are just looking for a straight answer, then mine is: No, not at all. Players aren't incompetent simply because they don't follow a specific set of tactics you were expecting of them.

Wanting a hard fight is fine - but this went a bit farther, especially when it is clear that people aren't yet familiar enough with their characters to run them at full effectiveness. Again, note the fact you mishandled Turn Undead, which if run properly could have completely changed the the course of the battle. Note the fact you continue to insist this this is a completely appropriate battle, and that the rules support you on this.

Of course they do - you can throw the party up against whatever you wish. But the rules certainly don't recommend you do so - and an encounter 5 levels above the PCs, with the odds already stacked against them, certainly seems like the type of thing you should be careful about. The PCs were literally outnumbered 2 to 1, with every single enemy higher level than them - that should really tell you that something is wrong with the encounter design.

If you are looking for some actual thoughts on the combat and what could have been changed about it, then here is how I would have done this encounter:

1 Wraith, 3 Skeletons, 4 Decrepit Skeletons. During the first round, another 4 Decrepit Skeletons unearth themselves out of the ground or creep out of the well or the buildings, then 3 on the next three rounds after that, and finally 2 each round until some condition is met. (Such as killing the Wraith or consecrating the area or somesuch.)

Make the condition obvious - the wraith glows with unholy power that energizes the other undead. No game effect, other than the continual onslaught of decrepit skeletons, but it makes him clearly seem like the boss of the encounter - a figure they will fill an accomplishment in defeating.

The encounter begins with them outnumbered and consists of undead constantly rising to battle them - that gives the feel of a truly dangerous, epic encounter. It gives them a sense of a time limit they need to win before they become overwhelmed. But at the same time, it is paced enough that they aren't simply outclassed from the start - the combat starts out at only 2 levels higher than them, and while it grows from there, the minions are arriving at a slow enough pace they don't make the difficulty outrageous.

Over the course of the battle, they'll end up fighting an encounter 3-4 levels above them - a hard, difficult battle, but one they can not only win, but actually see the progress they are making.

It isn't a perfect fight, but it should be one that keeps them on their toes. One that requires some tactical decisions - they need to keep the number of skeletons down so they don't get overwhelmed, but also need to focus on working towards their goal of killing the wraith (who is, of course, protected by the more dangerous skeletons.) Retreating into the buildings helps reduce how many enemies can get at them, but also cuts off their ability to focus fire.

Your goal seems to have been to have a memorable encounter, and feeling the only way to make it so was to crank up the difficulty. I think there are better ways to have gone about it. And when it backfired - when the fight was too much for the PCs - I don't think they should be held at fault for not being able to handle what was an inappropriate challenge. Especially not for the supposed failing of not following some hints to circle through a build into a better situation - I doubt that would have really made much difference. The actions lost doing so might even have hurt them, in the long run.

Could they have used better tactics? Certainly. Do they still need to spend some time learning their characters and getting used to what they can do? Apparently so. But this doesn't mean they are hopeless as players, and doesn't mean you can't find ways to challenge them in exciting and memorable encounters.

And until they become tactical geniuses who operate like a high-magic assault force, I recommend keeping the encounters to more appropriate levels - there are definitely reasonable fights you can present them with that will be tough, but allow them the chance to show their mettle and feel like victory is a real accomplishment.
 
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If you are looking for some actual thoughts on the combat and what could have been changed about it, then here is how I would have done this encounter:

1 Wraith, 3 Skeletons, 4 Decrepit Skeletons. During the first round, another 4 Decrepit Skeletons unearth themselves out of the crowd on creep out of the well or the buildings, then 3 on the next three rounds after that, and finally 2 each round until some condition is met. (Such as killing the Wraith or consecrating the area or somesuch.)

Make the condition obvious - the wraith glows with unholy power that energizes the other undead. No game effect, other than the continual onslaught of decrepit skeletons, but it makes him clearly seem like the boss of the encounter - a figure they will fill an accomplishment in defeating.

The encounter begins with them outnumbered and consists of undead constantly rising to battle them - that gives the feel of a truly dangerous, epic encounter. It gives them a sense of a time limit they need to win before they become overwhelmed. But at the same time, it is paced enough that they aren't simply outclassed from the start - the combat starts out at only 2 levels higher than them, and while it grows from there, the minions are arriving at a slow enough pace they don't make the difficulty outrageous.

Over the course of the battle, they'll end up fighting an encounter 3-4 levels above them - a hard, difficult battle, but one they can not only win, but actually see the progress they are making.

It isn't a perfect fight, but it should be one that keeps them on their toes. One that requires some tactical decisions - they need to keep the number of skeletons down so they don't get overwhelmed, but also need to focus on working towards their goal of killing the wraith (who is, of course, protected by the more dangerous skeletons.) Retreating into the buildings helps reduce how many enemies can get at them, but also cuts off their ability to focus fire.

Your goal seems to have been to have a memorable encounter, and feeling the only way to make it so was to crank up the difficulty. I think there are better ways to have gone about it. And when it backfired - when the fight was too much for the PCs - I don't think they should be held at fault for not being able to handle what was an inappropriate challenge. Especially not for the supposed failing of not following some hints to circle through a build into a better situation - I doubt that would have really made much difference. The actions lost doing so might even have hurt them, in the long run.

Could they have used better tactics? Certainly. Do they still need to spend some time learning their characters and getting used to what they can do? Apparently so. But this doesn't mean they are hopeless as players, and doesn't mean you can't find ways to challenge them in exciting and memorable encounters.

And until they become tactical geniuses who operate like a high-magic assault force, I recommend keeping the encounters to more appropriate levels - there are definitely reasonable fights you can present them with that will be tough, but allow them the chance to show their mettle and feel like victory is a real accomplishment.

Really wish I had this advice BEFORE I ran the encounter. That sounds like so much more fun.
 

I'm just gonna echo some of the other comments here, probably, but...

As far as I'm concerned, the blame for this one is about a 60/40 split, and you're the sixty.

  • You started out with an encounter level that's as hard as is recommended, at the very limit of the party's ability to handle. That means they'll need most of their resources for that one fight -- most of their daily powers, all the available surges, and so on. And then you expect them to have two more fights after that? Not cool. They might wind up in good enough shape to keep going, but this is the sort of battle that might very well cost their whole day's worth of resources.
  • Given this very hard fight, you then loaded it up with soldiers, which are A) more deadly in groups, and B) really hard to kill. That's what soldiers DO. They're defenders. So yeah, the fight is going to automatically be a smashfest with lots of HP damage on both sides.
  • Then you started the fight with the PCs in the worst possible spot, a pincher maneuver. In fact, if I'm reading this right, you started out with the enemy in melee range. That's automatically kicking every range-heavy character in the nuts -- you're telling them, "Oh, hey, you can't use your best attacks without getting punched in the face for your trouble, and you also can't go anywhere to escape."
  • And they were missing a player.
  • Yeah, they could've gotten away from the fight by using the doors or climbing. But the fact is that most players -- most HUMANS -- don't think in three dimensions very well, and often don't consider going up to escape; and running away from a situation by dashing through a previously closed door is often a death sentence all by itself. You, as DM, know that there's nothing dangerous on the other side of that door, but the players don't. As far as they're concerned, that door might conceal a half-dozen more skeletons! After all, you just sprang this lot on them with no warning... why should inside the house be any better?

The players were a little bit stupid not to take advantage of tactics that seemed to be working, like throwing things down the well, and to ignore the hints you threw out.. but on the other hand, those are hints from the guy who just sprung ten powerful monsters on them in such a way that they can't really escape (or not in an obvious way). Why should they think you have their interests at heart?

Anyway, in my experience, TPKs almost always happen this way. The party doesn't realize how outclassed they are until they already have casualties and the remainder are in too bad a shape to make a decent retreat. Everyone is concerned with husbanding their own resources and doesn't comprehend the larger picture (such as that the party is rapidly running through its healing surges and the enemy isn't taking nearly that much damage). The party doesn't realize how far from being dead the enemy is, and keeps hoping next turn will see everything turn around.


But frankly, the whole thing was a charlie foxtrot from the very beginning. A very tough fight with awful initial tactical positioning (by DM fiat, no less) should've sent up every warning flag you had that this was a bad fight to run. The fact that they were going to attempt this one character short and you didn't see fit to adjust the difficulty makes this mostly your fault.
 
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Really wish I had this advice BEFORE I ran the encounter. That sounds like so much more fun.

Ok, now that I've perhaps given out more than my fair share of the lecturing and criticizing ;), let me focus on some more heartfelt advice. I'd say the best single piece of advice to keep in mind for future encounters is: Focus on variety.

Variety of Enemy Roles

Minions are one of the great things 4E has added, but they are only part of it. An encounter filled with a bunch of copies of the same creature has two issues: One, it isn't going to be as exciting as a more varied encounter, and two, it has much more risk of the group being especially weak against those specific enemies. (Or especially well-suited to defeating them, which can be just as frustrating.)

The DMG has some good advice on this, and a bunch of different suggestions, but the core of the advice is to have a bunch of different roles represented. Some monsters that get in the party's face and distract them, others that lead from behind the scenes, others that sneak around and try to shank the party's wizard.

Variety of Enemy Power Levels

An alternative to that, for having an interesting fight, is to have a variety of power level amongst the enemies. In the example encounter I gave, we have three levels of power:

The Wraith, who is an obvious leader figure - not in the mechanical sense of providing any bonuses to his allies, but in the sense of being a central figure that will focus the combat and constantly have the party's attention.

Next we have the normal Skeletons - when describing the scene, I'd probably have these mentioned as looking like the corpses of soldiers, with still intact armor and weaponry, clearly establishing them as more of a threat than the lesser skeletons falling apart around them. What they do is provide something of a baseline of power for the PCs to compare against - any given PC might be able to go one on one with these guys and take it, but they don't have the luxury in this large, sprawling battle. More than that, it spooks the PCs to see these tough sturdy skeletons next to the little guys - they might get worried that, if the combat goes long enough, more of the tough guys will show up. That keeps them guessing, and makes it harder for them to just assume things will go their way.

Finally, we have the minions - cannon fodder, but in 4E, cannon fodder that still presents a threat. Having them come in waves (rather than throwing 20 or 30 at the group right away) actually works in their favor - the PCs are likely to burn some of their biggest area effects early, and this way you don't have all the minions wiped out right at the start of combat. In the end, they aren't the focus, but they also can't be ignored - a single one isn't dangerous, but letting them build up out of control is a recipe for disaster.

Variety of Scenery

Finally, having interesting scenery and terrain in an encounter is a very valuable tool. This one you had a solid hold of in your original plan - while the fight starts in a clearing between two buildings, the buildings were available to be part of the encounter, and a well was present for encouragement of forced movement abilities.

Unfortunately, one of the things I've noticed about 4E is that while it presents a great number of opportunities, it can take a while for players to get into the mindset of taking advantage of them. This, really, seemed to be the main point of your original post - that the players didn't even consider moving into the building at all.

What can you do to fix this? Well, in part, simply run more encounters with similar opportunities. Some of this is just a matter of getting used to the opportunities in the new edition, and the more the players experience it, the more comfortable they will feel doing so.

Additionally, trying to make such options feel more accessible. I mentioned before that many players might be afraid to dive into an unexplored area in the midst of combat. For some, this is from years of playing with tricksy DMs who have traps and nastiness hidden around every corner. For others, simply out of fear of the unknown - even if the risk is small, if it could tip the balance of a fight, it might not be worth taking... and thus, by the time they are willing to risk it, the fight might be already lost.

How can you get around this? More information always helps - do what you can to ease the player's fears. Maybe the door is swinging open and they can see the way is clear - maybe there are enemies inside, but in small enough numbers that they can be easily dispatched, thus drawing the PCs in from the beginning, and rewarding them for going that route.

Sometimes there won't be anything you can do to get PCs to make use of the environment the way you want them to - but that's ok. Not every fight needs to be fought the way you planned it, and adapting on the fly can sometimes make it as exciting for you as it is for the players.

In the scenario I gave, I would probably encourage the PCs to move into the house by making it look like a good defensive spot against the hordes of undead - or perhaps lure them in there by having the Wraith use it to keep safe, darting in and out of the walls, thus forcing them to chase it down. Once inside, skeletons start forcing their ways inside from all directions, through the doors, the windows, the chimney... if you can get a classic horror movie feel in there, then go for it! :)

But it doesn't need to be forced if the players do something unexpected. Maybe they retreat away from the building, thus forcing the Wraith to come after them - and while this lets more skeletons close in around them, it also might let them make better use of their area effects and explosive spells. Or maybe they retreat to the center of the area, fighting back to back so they can't be easily flanked, and find a way to set the houses ablaze to force the Wraith to come out into the open.

So I guess that is two important bits of advice: Make good use of variety to keep encounters interesting, and be prepared for the players to react unexpectedly... which keeps things interesting for you. :D
 

My two cents:

The party ignored what sounds like some pretty obvious hints about escape routes, that's their problem. However, I do find it reasonable of them to be hesitant to take said escape routes since you, the DM, did just spring a bunch of tough undead on them and they have no way of knowing there aren't more behind the door. Still, if you think your party is about to get wiped out, why not open the door and see if your soul is devoured by some other lurking monster/trap? Go out in style. I've had players whose solution to a tough fight was to run into unexplored territory, which resulted in adding monsters to the fight. I'm not quite sure what the logic was there, but it was amusing.

My other penny is simply this: video games may be ruining our players' ability to think realistically about combat situations. How many video games have you played where random encounters or even dungeons in out of the way locations have baddies that you can't deal with? I can think of this happening in Final Fantasy IX once, where you can gain access to a plateau at 20th level where monsters that are challenging when you're 50th level abound. There are a few other instances of this happening, but far more often the bad guys you encounter are something you can defeat. Oblivion is the biggest perpetrator of this phenomenon. Because they're used to the video game approach, the players assume that anything you throw at them is something they can defeat (Unless they're low level and see a dragon fly overhead). For the most part, I do my best to present encounters my party can handle, but I toss in enough instances of obviously powerful creatures to keep the players thinking about retreat. Discretion is the better part of valor, and our players tend to forget this.
 

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