Forsaker question...

[Hannibal Barca]

Does a 3rd level Forsaker with the Natural Weapons class feature need to have his damage reduction "up" for the Natural Weapon class feature to work? Or is it always up regardless whether he has damage reduction "up" by having broken a magic item?

 

[Mr Fidgit]

the damage reduction is required for the natural weapon ability to work, so, yes, the forsaker does have to destroy magic items to use natural weapons

 

[Felix]

Lame lame lame lame.

I'm going to bed, but I'll be back with my MotW to discuss semantics tomorrow. Unless you're right, of course.

Lame.

 

[Mr Fidgit]

damage reduction (ex) - blah, blah, blah, this ability remains in effect only as long as the forsaker destroys the required value of magic items every 24 hours, etc.

natural weapons (ex) - blah, any weapons he uses functions as if it were a natural weapon for overcoming damage reduction, etc.


natural weapons requires damage reduction
damage reduction requires magic destruction

lame?, but true

 

[Mistwell]

The answer is unclear. The ability description says the weapon functions as if it were a natural weapon for overcoming damage reduction. The natural weapon entry says the weapon counts as a type that ignores its own innate damage reduction, but not for spells (which are transient) such as stoneskin's damage reduction. Forsaker damage reduction is an ability, not necessarily innate. Innate abilities are generally those that are determined by factors present in an individual from birth (like natural weapons), and not transient things that are learned from experience or which are turned on and off. The Forsaker ability, however, does not come from birth, but is a learned ability with experience, that turns on and off based on his actions or inactions. The Forsaker's ability, thertefore, does not function exactly like a natural weapon for purposes of overcoming damage reduction (hence the modifier as if in the ability description).

I really do not think it is clear that the Forsaker's damage reduction must be active for this ability to be active. The Forsaker has the ability, at all times, to trigger the damage reduction (by destroying magic). Therefore, you could argue the ability functions as if it were an innate and always present (though perhaps passive at the moment) damage reduction and therefore the ability to overcome damage reduction as if the Forsaker had a natural weapon is always on.

I think this is a good case for sage advice, personally.

 

[Hannibal Barca]

It certainly would be more playable.

 

[Mr Fidgit]

Innate abilities are generally those that are determined by factors present in an individual from birth (like natural weapons), and not transient things that are learned from experience or which are turned on and off. The Forsaker ability, however, does not come from birth, but is a learned ability with experience, that turns on and off based on his actions or inactions.

I think this is a good case for sage advice, personally.

as extraordinary abilities (ex), both damage reduction and natural weapons function exactly like a rogues evasion ability, which is a learned trait, EXCEPT that damage reduction is dependant on destroying magic items.

it should be noted that all of the other forsaker abilities (ability bonus, fast healing, spell resistance, tough defense, and slippery mind) are also extraordinary abilities, that are not affected by magic destruction. this makes damage reduction and natural weapons dependant on magic destruction, so its a built-in drawback to the forsaker PrC.

and i totally agree that it would be more playable, Hannibal, and be a bit more clear, Mistwell, if the language of each ability was better defined (and we wouldn't need this thread )

 

[Felix]

Semantics: gotta love it.

MotW, p. 59

Magic Destruction: The forsaker gains access to his damage reduction ability (see above) through the destruction of magic items. If he goes more than 24 hours without destroying magic items whose market prices total at least 100 gp per point of damage reduction, he loses that ability until he does so.

Natural Weapons: Beginning at 3rd level, the forsaker can fight as though he and his weapon were one. Any weapon he uses functions as if it were a natural weapon for overcoming damage reduction (see Damage Reduction in the introduction of the Monster Manual). That is, if the forsaker has damage reduction 3/+1, any weapon he uses functions as if it were a +1 weapon for overcoming a foe's damage reduction.

2 Intrepretations:

The favorable one: The forsaker must destroy magic to gain access, ie, to be able to use, the special ability Damage Reduction. Just like a fighter who is reduced to 8 STR; he still has Power Attack, but he can't use it or Cleave. It follows that while the forsaker might not be able to use his DR, he still has it, thereby allowing any weapon he uses to be considered a +something to bypass DR.

The unfavorable one: "...he loses that ability..." Not only can he not access his ability but that ability ceases to exist, thereby removing his access Natural Weapons (it is like the Fighter who completely forgot how to attack powerfully!).


Looking at these two arguments alone, I would say that the unfavorable one is stronger, unfortunately.


The rebuttal to the unfavorable interpretation:

Damage Reduction: At 2nd level, the forsaker ... This ability remains in effect only as long as the forsaker destroys the required value of magic items every 24 hours...

This wording is contrary to what is said in Magic Destruction: the ability is not in effect, but the forsaker still has it. "That is, if the forsaker has Damage Reduction 3/+1, any weapon..." (under Natural Weapons) Forsaker still has DR, though it's not effecting anything. Because he has DR, he has Natural Weapons.

Take your pick; that's as good a rules lawyering as I can do without the use of facial gestures and table-pounding.


Would someone post the wording for Damage Reduction in the intro to the Monster Manual, it's kind of pertinent.

 

[kreynolds]

Would someone post the wording for Damage Reduction in the intro to the Monster Manual, it's kind of pertinent.

Damage Reduction (Su): The creature ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A magic weapon or a creature with its own damage reduction can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 25 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability. For example, the werewolf's entry reads "damage reduction 15/silver"; Each time a foe hits a werewolf with a weapon, the damage deal by that attack is reduced by 15 points (to a minimum of 0). However, a silver weapon deals full damage.

Any weapon more powerful than the type listed in the note also negates the ability. (For details, see Table 3-13: Damage Reduction Rankings, page 74 in the Dungeon Master's Guide.)

For example, the werewolf (damage reduction 15/silver) takes normal damage from weapons with +1 or better magical bonuses, but not from nonmagical weapons made from material other than silver, and not from keen weapons or weapons or weapons with other special magical properties.

For purposes of harming other creatures with damage reduction, a creature's natural weapons count as the type that ignore its own innate damage reduction. However, damage reduction from spells, such as stoneskin, does not confer this ability. The amount of damage reduction is irrelevant. For example, a Large air elemental (damage reduction 10/+1) deals full damage to a werewolf, as if the elemental's attack were with a +1 weapon.

 

[Felix]

Thanks kreynolds

Analysis of MM selection:

DR for the forsaker is either innate, or not. Let us consider the case that the forsaker ability of DR is not innate.

This is the only relevant wording:

a creature's natural weapons count as the type that ignore its own innate damage reduction.

You can see that it is not possible (even if they say it in MotW) for the forsaker to have damage reduction: a forsaker has no innate damage reduction.

Because this quote does not mention the possibility of DR as a learned, extraordinary ability (which we decided it is for now) this quote can have no bearing on our decision. Evidently the rules in MotW superscede these concerning PCs with DR. We are reverted to the two interpretations of the descriptions I posted above.


Now let us consider the case that a forsaker's DR is innate.

"weapons count as the type that ignore its own innate DR" It says nothing of wether that ability is activated, or not. Unless you see this as more support for the favorable interpretation (active or not, a forsaker's innate DR is a forsaker's innate DR. Can't be changed), it can have no bearing on the discussion.


In summary: The description in the MM has not supported the unfavorable interpretation; it has supported the favorable interpretation, weakly, but some support is evident.