Forward Observer and dim light

[DNH]

Something came up in our game the other night that I would like some opinions on. Here's the situation: most of the party is standing in a doorway, looking into a large room that is dimly lit. A gnoll enemy is at the far side of the room. The party's rogue wants to shoot her crossbow at the gnoll and I impose the standard penalty of -2 to her attack roll, given that the gnoll is in a square of dim light and therefore has concealment.

So far, so straightforward.

"Wait a minute!" says the party's warlord (who is standing right next to the rogue). "Delay until after my turn. I use Forward Observer."

Choose one enemy you can see. Until the end of your next turn, any ally who can see or hear you doesn’t take the normal penalty to attack rolls for cover or concealment when attacking that enemy (the penalties for superior cover and total concealment still apply).

So my problem here is that the RAW absolutely allow this but it makes no sense. How can the warlord direct attacks on a target that is just as concealed to him as it is to the others (to the rogue)? The gnoll has concealment due to dim light and that applies equally for the warlord at this point. But the wording of the power's effect allows the player's interpretation: the warlord could see the gnoll, though dimly lit; the rogue could see and hear the warlord and so, as per RAW, the rogue does not take the -2 penalty on attack rolls for cover or concealment.

It's a case of RAW versus RAI.

We argued the point for a couple of minutes but, without wanting to stall the game, I accepted the player's reading this time, while reserving for myself the right to revise the decision for future occurrences.

To be honest, I am surprised this has not come up before but I don't seem to be able to find anything on the net about it.

My current thinking is to rule that this power cannot be used if the target is concealed to the warlord through light conditions. I imagine the player will complain that this renders the power useless (he has already said something along those lines) but I disagree; there are plenty of situations that can arise (or be made to arise) where this power can come into its own.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[Ryujin]

The player is right. The power doesn't differentiate between concealment due to lighting conditions, being behind a gauzy curtain, Warlock's Shadow Walk feature, or carrying around his own personal camouflage bush. The Warlord is expending extra effort, by way of a power, to be able to clearly make out where an opponent is and pass that information on to an ally. Like the power says he doesn't even need to be able to see the opponent, so lighting conditions are immaterial.

He took that level 6 power for a reason, when he could have taken another. You should let him use it

 

[FreeXenon]

Pretty much what Ryujin sadi. I understand exactly what you are saying though.

Attempting to inject too much realism and physics into the game breaks the fantasy. =(

 

[OnlineDM]

Yeah, I think this is pretty much the point of this power. I suppose you could fluff it as the warlord pointing so precisely that the rogue can aim a little better.

 

[Spatula]

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thought #1: this hasn't come up much on message boards because hardly anyone has taken that utility.

Thought #2: You could easily change the power to read that it only removes cover and concealment penalties that the warlord doesn't suffer from, or for LOS purposes to treat the attack as originating from the warlord (but the attacker still needs LOE). But that makes a highly situational power even moreso. How often is that really going to come up? Avoiding cover from allies of the target?

Maybe you're better off just renaming the exploit to "Uncanny Targeting" or something like that.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Strangely enough, I play a warlord and have in fact taken that utility. I would say that if you nerf the power in some way, make sure it's for a good in-game reason. Trying to put your own realism on it is a terrible way to do it. In this case, I would argue that concealment and lighting go hand-in-hand. This means that you essentially say the power cannot be used to negate concealment. How can you have concealment if you don't affect lighting in some way (even changing your colors to use camouflage changes the lighting).

In any case, I actually call the power my laser designator. I identify which bad guy I'm laser designating and the ranged strikers (sometimes with my help) target him. The single best use for this power is to be able to target the guys in the back who are gaining cover due to intervening allies. To help with your conceptual problem, however, either think of it as a laser designator or perhaps a spot light, which eliminates the concealment for that one target.

As another aside, DM to DM, consider given a bad guy a similar power to this in some future scenario. This power, in the hands of a bad guy, will mess up the rogue's day.

 

[Unwise]

I really don't see what the problem is. The warlord is a trained Forward Observer, he can see things and work out where to shoot better than somebody who is not. It fits in game pretty well too without much stretching, it could be as simple as "on my mark, hold, hold...fire!".

If you are basing it on real life (I wouldn't) then I can tell you that some friends of mine who have done Sniping and Mortar training obtain high value targets on far away hills when I would still be trying to work out which direction the enemy is coming from.

 

[chitzk0i]

If somebody in your game took Crossbow Expertise or Wand Expertise, would you nerf those feats because it doesn't make sense for them to be able to ignore cover or concealment?

 

[JohnnyO]

This is exactly what that utility power is for, let them use it. RAW I have no problem with it.

Whether it "makes sense" just comes down to the ability to creatively explain the situation as a DM (or player).

In my mind, it goes something like this:

The rogue trains his crossbow across the room, but it having trouble drawing a bead on the enemy due to the dim lighting conditions.

The warlord surveys the situation and notices the gnoll is wearing a particularly shiny belt buckle, which catches the light occasionally as he shifts his weight back and forth. The warlord angles his torch in such a way to catch the reflection.

The warlord whispers quietly: "Look for the reflection of light, when you see it, aim just above!"

The rogue takes the advice and lets a quarrel fly, catching the gnoll squarely in the gut. The gnoll howls in pain, and the battle commences in earnest!