FR: Players Guide to Faerun is out what do you think?

[jasamcarl]

Did I mention that my one-level first-level class is v. exclusive to only this world? Heck, it varies by region...it grounds you more in the world!

Eh, it's still a bad reason. While I can see the logic, it's crossing the flavor/mechanics boundary (you've done something for flavor! here's a mechanical benefit!), and it's effectively saying "Guys from FR are better than your mooks from wherever else you guys are from, 'cuz we've got REGIONAL FEATS! And those make us POWERFUL!"

I mean, it doesn't exactly shatter the game, but it's significant enough to grate on me...it's like saying something can be powerful because it's 'rare.' This is bad rules fu, methinks.

I agree with you, though in practice, beyond 1st level, the balance effects are minimal. This is because they are more potent than single feats, but not feat chains. And from what I can tell, they are not prereqs for other feats. Many simply act to give large benefit to rolls than only come up occassionaly. Most feats with feat prereqs will give you more utility. They are not that bad, though its a line i wish they hadn't crossed.

 

[LGodamus]

I don't think it had any severe balance issues. Some of the feats were better than normal, yes, but that's because they were regional feats: you can only take one of those, and at 1st level. The rest of the feats seemed pretty much in line with relative feats from the PHB.

In regards to how much is "lootable" for a non-FR game...well, its not the easiest thing to remove a lot of this for a more generic game unless you want to be doing heavy borrowing. Things like the region listings, cosmology, etc. seem pretty closely tied. If you just want to use the feats, spells, PrC's etc., you shouldn't have too bad a time.

you are not limited in how many regional feats you can take nor can they only be purchased at first level.....unless of course they changed it from 3.0

 

[BobROE]

you are not limited in how many regional feats you can take nor can they only be purchased at first level.....unless of course they changed it from 3.0

Which they did, which I think is part of the point.

 

[Alzrius]

Did I mention that my one-level first-level class is v. exclusive to only this world? Heck, it varies by region...it grounds you more in the world!

Then you've managed to create something that is not only not unbalancing, but works well with your world also! Congratulations, it must be very gratifying.

Eh, it's still a bad reason. While I can see the logic, it's crossing the flavor/mechanics boundary (you've done something for flavor! here's a mechanical benefit!),

Not really, no. That would be true if you got an effect just for doing something, but these still have to be purchased normally with a feat slot. Not to mention the fact that your choices among them are limited to start with, and you can only take one, more than makes up for the fact that that it's slightly more powerful (and only slightly).

and it's effectively saying "Guys from FR are better than your mooks from wherever else you guys are from, 'cuz we've got REGIONAL FEATS! And those make us POWERFUL!"

Now that's just plain ridiculous...the Greyhawk boys have regional feats too.

I mean, it doesn't exactly shatter the game, but it's significant enough to grate on me...it's like saying something can be powerful because it's 'rare.' This is bad rules fu, methinks.

With that outlook, major artifacts must tear you up inside.

Honestly though, I don't think any of the regional feats are more powerful than, say, a feat that offers a permanent, unnamed +4 bonus initiative.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Then you've managed to create something that is not only not unbalancing, but works well with your world also! Congratulations, it must be very gratifying.

....see, the point was that's exactly what these regional feats are.

Not really, no. That would be true if you got an effect just for doing something, but these still have to be purchased normally with a feat slot. Not to mention the fact that your choices among them are limited to start with, and you can only take one, more than makes up for the fact that that it's slightly more powerful (and only slightly).

See, as far as I can see, this is bad balance-fu. You have to pay the cost, but you get a greater benefit than someone else who pays the same cost....maybe not significantly....but it's kinda like in normal D&D, 1 first-level feat = 1 first-level feat. In FR, 1 first-level feat = 1 first-level feat +1. It's not game-breaking, but it is unbalancing....a smidge. You pay no extra cost for that +1.

Limiting the number and choices isn't a balance factor. Even if there is only one of those one-level uberclasses per continent, the class is still overpowered on it's own merits. It's on an extra cost, it's just that your +1 is limited on what it can apply to...it's a limit on the bonus, not a cost to pay for the bonus...

Now that's just plain ridiculous...the Greyhawk boys have regional feats too.

Well, no, not really....not if the PHB is taken to = Greyhawk (which was my assumption)....but basically, whatever world is crafted from the PHB is now 'worse,' just like any character created in that world. The FR character is more powerful. Though my example was ludicrously exaggerated, I'll give you that.

With that outlook, major artifacts must tear you up inside.

Major artifacts are more plot devices than anything else...PC's don't expect to get their hands on them unless there's a reason within the plot, and then don't expect to be able to 'abuse' their powers for very long. However, FR PC's expect to get these "+1 feats," and expect to be able to use it to it's greatest advantage. It shouldn't matter how exotic or rare, say, a mercurial greatsword is...once the PC's get one, they're more powerful than ever before, and if the PC's never get one there's no reason to have them in the game.

Honestly though, I don't think any of the regional feats are more powerful than, say, a feat that offers a permanent, unnamed +4 bonus initiative.

Well, when one comprable feat gives you access to a single martial weapon....vs. FR's 'all martial weapons'.....that's more powerful than any standard feat...frighteningly so...

 

[Felon]

Not really, no. That would be true if you got an effect just for doing something, but these still have to be purchased normally with a feat slot.

If they're better than a regular feat then clearly it's reasonable to suggest that they should have some accompanying extra cost. That there's only a one-level window to take the feat does not represent a cost, but is rather a limitation to keep players from taking more than one. That's not the same thing as it does not balance the regional feat against a non-regional taken at first level.

Not to mention the fact that your choices among them are limited to start with, and you can only take one, more than makes up for the fact that that it's slightly more powerful (and only slightly).

So far nothing that's been said indicates that the greater power of the regional feat is "made up for" in comparison to a non-regional feat taken at first level.

As for the rationale the designers provided--that taking a regional feat encourages roleplaying--that's really pretty dubious reasoning. A character can just take the feat, and never have to really know anything about the region. It happened all the time before; the simple truth is that players are often unfamiliar with their DM's chosen campaign setting at is outset, and really don't have an easy way to become familiar until they've played a while--which takes them beyond first level. Like the Midget said, bartering mechanical balance for role-playing flavor doesn't really work out all that equitably. Folks have been aware of that since the 1e cavalier. Role-players will role-play without any inducement. Powergamers will just pay lip service to get the slight power boost.

 

[Alzrius]

See, as far as I can see, this is bad balance-fu. You have to pay the cost, but you get a greater benefit than someone else who pays the same cost....maybe not significantly....but it's kinda like in normal D&D, 1 first-level feat = 1 first-level feat. In FR, 1 first-level feat = 1 first-level feat +1. It's not game-breaking, but it is unbalancing....a smidge. You pay no extra cost for that +1.

And if all feats were created equal to begin with, that might be true. But as it is, some normal feats are just better than others anyway. Getting +2 to Diplomacy and Bluff (or whatever) isn't as good as getting (to rehash that example) +4 to initiative.

Well, no, not really....not if the PHB is taken to = Greyhawk

Um, you do realize that there's a two-part article in Dragon (part 2 in next month's issue) that gives regional feats for the Greyhawk campaign, right?

Major artifacts are more plot devices than anything else...PC's don't expect to get their hands on them unless there's a reason within the plot, and then don't expect to be able to 'abuse' their powers for very long.

To be fair, that's just your interpretation.

Well, when one comprable feat gives you access to a single martial weapon....vs. FR's 'all martial weapons'.....that's more powerful than any standard feat...frighteningly so...

And not at all more powerful than a single level of Fighter, which would do the same thing...hey, that means Fighter is your uber-class, isnt it?!

 

[Alzrius]

Role-players will role-play without any inducement. Powergamers will just pay lip service to get the slight power boost.

Which is the fault of the player, not the system. A single feat that is slightly better won't unbalance anything, unless a bad player (or substandard DM) lets it.

 

[Felon]

Which is the fault of the player, not the system.

This opinion is a little naive. If you're designing a henhouse and you know there are foxes out there, you do have an obligation to address the potential problem. When some chickens get eaten, you don't get absolved of responsibility for leaving holes in the structure by saying "that's the foxes fault, and the fault of the rooster that should have been watching all the hens, but not mine--not in the least!"

Likewise, the simple fact of the matter is, there are bad players out there, the designers are aware of that, and that's where spiffy concepts like "game balance" come into the picture. When presenting new feats, spells, classes, or what have you, the system does have an obligation to address obvious exploits before they get out of the starting gate, and so far this looks to be one of them.

A single feat that is slightly better won't unbalance anything, unless a bad player (or substandard DM) lets it.

It's not the end of the world, but the scenario shouldn't exist in the first place. Rather than just sort of weakly contend that "oh, this is a little unbalanced but it won't be too broken I suppose", they should just make an earnest effort to keep the field level.

 

[heimdall]

It's not the end of the world, but the scenario shouldn't exist in the first place. Rather than just sort of weakly contend that "oh, this is a little unbalanced but it won't be too broken I suppose", they should just make an earnest effort to keep the field level.

Well, consider that all PCs in FR have the same option. Strictly speaking, it IS balanced. Now, when compared with other worlds, yes, the characters may be more powerful.

But then again, the rules were designed for the Realms, not a cross-over campaign. Each world is going to have things in it that make it unique. Look at the Bard class in the DragonLance campaign setting prior to the Age of Mortals... no spells. Even when Age of Mortals hits, no healing spells, as that's the province of divine spellcasters ONLY. And if we look at Ravenloft, 3.0 or 3.5 rules, spellcasters get nerfed a bit because certain spells react differently. One could say the field isn't leveled between say Greyhawk and Ravenloft. An example of an out-of-balance situation can almost always be found when comparing across worlds.