FR Podcast is up

[Mirtek]

Let me mention another inconsistency I've spotted: the Spellplague apparently is not "powerful" enough to break High/Epic Magic wards (i.e. Mythals and Mythal-like magics), *but* it's able to shuffle around the planes (destroying the planes ruled by demipowers, lesser powers and intermediate powers -- not to mention "tossing" Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos). Wow, I guess those gods should have invested in Elven High Magic instead of Salient Divine Abilities...

You could easily say that the mortals were lucky and the spellplauge that hit the world was a mere shadow of the spellplauge from before it burnt out most of it's potency against the divine powers.

So without the deities lessening the spellplague by defending (successful or not) their realms against the plague the world of mortals would have hit much more badly.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

Threads like this are precisely why I hate Forgotten Realms. Too high of magic with too many publishing vehicles that have inevitably contradicted themselves throughout the entire setting's lifespan.

 

[Desdichado]

Ah, you missed the point there. I was criticizing how there seem to glaring "errors" in the "New Realms" (lore which contradicts current canon lore) which implies that the designers have not done their "homework".

Your "point" might just as well be "made" without the use of so many "quotations."

If that's what you're doing, you're way off base, IMO. That's sorta like saying that the Iron Man movie got it all wrong based on the trailers. It's the tail wagging the dog. You aren't equipped to even make that judgement at this point.

Also; I (and many others) are making the point that those aren't "errors" just because you say they are. They may well be changes, but they're not errors. Just like the introduction of midichlorians as the source of the Force wasn't an error—unless you want to call it an error of judgement.

If you think it's a bad idea, that's perfectly valid: attempting to "disprove" the previews, based on what little we know about them because you think minor bits of esoterica renders what you believe they're doing with the setting impossible to do; that's just fan wankery.

However, I'm not arguing that they should cater only to my tastes -- as already noted, my problem with the 4E FR is that they're clearly not familiar with the traditional "feel" and "spirit" of the Realms *and* they don't seem to be interested enough in reading the previously published books. I'm also wondering why they didn't hire George Krashos, Eric Boyd and Steven Schend to work on the first 4E books, because those guys are all admired and talented designers who know the Realms inside-out -- why hire people who admit that they've never DMed or played in the Realms?

Because they believe those people are more in touch with the target demographic, as you point out?

I mean, it's not rocket science here. The only reason to hire "old guard" authors and be a real stickler for all the minutiae of the setting is if they were trying to resell the setting exclusively to the existing "old guard" fanbase. I think it's fair to say they hope to have better sales numbers than that; you've even conceded as much yourself.

Yet some professional game designers don't have the same kind of passion your average "Joe Blow DM" has -- it's *work*, after all, and no matter how much you love it, your attitude towards it changes as it becomes your profession. It's hard to be creative or give your best when the deadlines pile on you, and this is true in any "creative" industry.

Just as you claim that I can't know that some Joe Blow DM doesn't have the potential to be the next Sean K Reynolds or whatever, you can't possibly know that professional game designers have no passion for gaming.

I have no doubt that you're correct for some game designers out there, but the idea that all these guys are just picking up a paycheck and going through the motions is actually somewhat insulting. And illogical. They can cash a better paycheck in all kinds of other careers. They by and large do this because they love it.

Let me quote you: "...but arguing with someone else's tastes? Waste of time, pal."

You seem to really struggle to decipher my flippant comments from my serious ones. I guess to keep on the same page, I'll have to refrain from the former when dealing with you.

So you don't think much of Robert Jordan and that's just fine by me -- it's your opinion. But tell me: have you actually read any 'Wheel of Time'-novels? I do agree that ever since Book 6 the series ground to a halt, but those first books are IMHO among the best fantasy fiction novels I've ever read.

Of course; I described them as torrid, interminable soap operas, didn't I? You think I got that impression reading the dust jackets? I read nine of them before I gave up in disgust.

 

[Primal]

I have, much to my chagrin. And you have addressed it, just not satisfactorily. You're spinning around in circles trying to pretend that the Realms is consistent, but let's face it; it's notoriously not so.

Heck, even YOU've given plenty of examples yourself. In this thread. Of blatant inconsistencies.

Now, how about you read the whole thread please, and rather than skip over my meatier posts—about which I suspect you can't satisfactorily argue—address them. You've managed to cut through three of them and simply focus on my flippant one-liner instead, thinking that perhaps you had a chance with that one.

Oh, most certainly -- but whatever inconsistencies were introduced back in 2E/3E pale by comparison to these "blatant" 4E inconsistencies (i.e. I could work around them or ignore them or even rewrite some stuff). Besides, a great many inconsistencies (which were the result of TSR using so many designers/freelancers unfamiliar with the details) were largely dealt with by Boyd, Schend and Krashos.

I thought I already addressed the "Shar-and-Cyric-teleporting-into-Dweomerheart"-topic? Can you explain to me, using arguments based on Realmslore facts, how that whole farce could have happened?

Fact 1: Cyric and Shar are both major enemies to Mystra -- she would have placed magical wards and traps against them in Dweomerheart.

Fact 2: Mystra is the most powerful of the Greater Deities. Powerful enough to withstand a direct assault from two other Greater Deities -- *especially* on her own "place of power". It is nigh-unthinkable that Cyric and Shar could take her by surprise in Dweomerheart.

Fact 3: Mystra can use her 'Deny Weave'-power, which she would have done the moment Shar or Cyric tried to enter her plane.

Fact 4: Mystra was apparently attended by one of the other deities of magic (IIRC, it was Azuth?). This would have made the fight even harder for Cyric and Shar.

Fact 5: Savras and his followers should have had some kind of "warning" well in advance that Shar and Cyric are planning to assassinate Mystra.

Fact 6: Shar could not use the Shadow Weave to transport them into Dweomerheart, since it is no longer part of the Weave.

It would feel a bit more logical *if* Shar had used the Shadow Weave to transport herself and Cyric into Mystra's presence, *BUT* as the designers posted on the WoTC forums, they're "separating" Shadow Weave from the Weave. If they didn't Weave's collapse should have destroyed the Shadow Weave, too (Bye-bye Shade! Bye-bye Sharrans!).

Are you satisfied, now?

 

[Mirtek]

Fact 1: Cyric and Shar are both major enemies to Mystra -- she would have placed magical wards and traps against them in Dweomerheart.

A deity of magic would know how to do that. A deity of murder would know how to sneak past that. 50:50

Also Shar has quite her share of experience with magic and, even he doesn't get the credit he deserves in MoF, Cyric is a deity of magice too (since slaying Leira and taking her stuff)

Fact 2: Mystra is the most powerful of the Greater Deities. Powerful enough to withstand a direct assault from two other Greater Deities -- *especially* on her own "place of power". It is nigh-unthinkable that Cyric and Shar could take her by surprise in Dweomerheart.

Cyric once almost took her out while being denied access to magic (something which Mystra should have been unable to do at the place the fought)

Fact 3: Mystra can use her 'Deny Weave'-power, which she would have done the moment Shar or Cyric tried to enter her plane.

Which wouldn't impede their SDAs

Fact 4: Mystra was apparently attended by one of the other deities of magic (IIRC, it was Azuth?). This would have made the fight even harder for Cyric and Shar.

No one said it was an easy win.

Fact 5: Savras and his followers should have had some kind of "warning" well in advance that Shar and Cyric are planning to assassinate Mystra.

A deity of seers vs. a deity of secrets. The 50:50 issue once again. And no one said that they were completly surprised, they just did not know enough to evade their fate.

Fact 6: Shar could not use the Shadow Weave to transport them into Dweomerheart, since it is no longer part of the Weave.

They most likely did not attack the goddess of the weave with the weave. Surely mostly SDAs and the good old cold steel (or whatever metaphysical matter weapons like Razor's Edge are made of)

If they didn't Weave's collapse should have destroyed the Shadow Weave, too (Bye-bye Shade! Bye-bye Sharrans!).

Hasn't the SW been destroyed too? Since weave users now cast without the weave, who says shadow weave users now cast without the shadow weave.

Shadow magic isn't tied to either weave

 

[DandD]

Fact 1: Cyric and Shar are both major enemies to Mystra -- she would have placed magical wards and traps against them in Dweomerheart.

And they would have worked together to overcome these wards and traps.
FR-gods aren't allmighty, they're only outsiders with many many hitdices. If mortal heroes and villains can overcome ancient mystical traps and wards from uber-magical civilizations, so can two evil gods who work together.

Fact 2: Mystra is the most powerful of the Greater Deities. Powerful enough to withstand a direct assault from two other Greater Deities -- *especially* on her own "place of power". It is nigh-unthinkable that Cyric and Shar could take her by surprise in Dweomerheart.

Appearently not. I mean, seriously, in the end, it's just about withering down the hitpoints of your enemy. We have one more-than-epic spellcaster vs. one more-than-epic rogue aided by a more-than-epic witch.

Fact 3: Mystra can use her 'Deny Weave'-power, which she would have done the moment Shar or Cyric tried to enter her plane.

Guess that's when the 'Use Shadow Weave'-Power comes in handy.

Fact 4: Mystra was apparently attended by one of the other deities of magic (IIRC, it was Azuth?). This would have made the fight even harder for Cyric and Shar.

Nah, nobody helped her in the fight. Azuth and whatever other lesser magic god just got lost into the astral space or so when Mystra died and her house exploded. Magic does all kind of crazy stuff.

Fact 5: Savras and his followers should have had some kind of "warning" well in advance that Shar and Cyric are planning to assassinate Mystra.

Why?

Fact 6: Shar could not use the Shadow Weave to transport them into Dweomerheart, since it is no longer part of the Weave.

What has being part of the Weave to do with being able to teleport or somehow being able to enter into the plane of Mystra 2.0? Gods are using divine salient powers.

It would feel a bit more logical *if* Shar had used the Shadow Weave to transport herself and Cyric into Mystra's presence, *BUT* as the designers posted on the WoTC forums, they're "separating" Shadow Weave from the Weave. If they didn't Weave's collapse should have destroyed the Shadow Weave, too (Bye-bye Shade! Bye-bye Sharrans!).

So?

 

[marune]

Just as you claim that I can't know that some Joe Blow DM doesn't have the potential to be the next Sean K Reynolds or whatever, you can't possibly know that professional game designers have no passion for gaming.

Very bad example.

SKR and Rich Baker are the 3.x era designers hated by FR canon fanatics.

A good example would be Eric L. Boyd, who has vanished from Candlekeep boards and got his name on the 4E FR Players guide...

I bet on Bruce Cordell (lead designer of the FR DM guide) to be the next guy to hate, according to the reputation of his FR novels and his recent Realmslore articles.

 

[Eridanis]

I had hoped a word here to tone down discussion would be sufficient, but there are way too many people being angry at one another.

Thread closed. Feel free to open another thread on specific FR-related issues raised here, but leave the sniping behind.