[FR] Revised Sword Dancer PrC -- feedback desired

[iDEATH]

I'm looking for some serious critiques here. There's only been a little straight beefing, mostly more skill points and better saves, 'cause when I did some comparisons I thought the Sword Dancer got a little ripped off. Otherwise I tried to mostly swap abilities around, not really adding in anything extra.

Both myself and my DM are thinking this is pretty good, fairly well balanced, but more eyes and heads taking a look over can't hurt, eh? LMK what you think, and if there's anything really broken or wrong with it. Suggestions muchly appreciated.

Note: This is a heavy modification based on the published PrC, so you might want your Faiths & Pantheons for reference since I didn't type out what I didn't change. I've got my own comments in italics, hopefully to clarify some ideas and deal with a few 'why' questions before they arise.

Concept: The Sword Dancer is the fightin'est cleric. Sword work is important to Eilistraee's clergy, so the Sword Dancer PrC should reflect that ideal of martial skill and grace. It's even reflected in their dogma with their reaction to violence and evil. Unlike the published PrC, hopefully this one will better represent this concept, and in my mind better reflect the idea and image of what the name 'Sword Dancer' inspires by focusing on the Sword Dancer herself, not the Dancers' sword.

HD: d8

Reqs: Same.

Skills: Same list, points increased to 4 + Int Modifier/Level.

(I'm a skill junkie, lovin' being able to spend points on frivilous skills like Profession: Cooking)

Lvl. BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells/Day
1 +0 +0 +2 +2 Bardic Music, Low-Light Vision, +1 existing class
2 +1 +0 +3 +3 Moonlights, Sword Song +1 level of existing class
3 +2 +1 +3 +3 Sword Dance +1 level of existing class
4 +3 +1 +4 +4 Mobility +1 level of existing class
5 +3 +1 +4 +4 Lesser Spellsong +1 level of existing class
6 +4 +2 +5 +5 Dancer's Grace +1 level of existing class
7 +5 +2 +5 +5 Spring Attack +1 level of existing class
8 +6 +2 +6 +6 Spellsong +1 level of existing class
9 +6 +3 +6 +6 +1 level of existing class
10 +7 +3 +7 +7 Maiden's Final Dance +1 level of existing class


Wp. & Armour Prof: Same exactly, including the limitations.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: Same.

(Special: the idea here is to flip-flop offensive and defensive abilities, substuting my own ideas for special powers for the PrC current set)

Bardic Music: (same as Spellsinger in Races of Faerun, replaces the published PrCs Sword Song ability)
Low-light Vision: (kept, 'cause it just seems appropriate given 'moonlight' is part of Eilistraee's portfolio)

Moonlights: (a harmless, but flavourful ability of the old Sp. Priest, so why not keep it?
Sword Song: When wearing no armour and wielding a sword for which she possesses the Weapon Focus feat, a Sword Dancer gains a dodge bonus to her armour class equal to her wisdom adjustment.
(definately important, given the preference of no armour and the idea of graceful, skilled sword work)

Sword Dance: A ritual performed under the light of the moon, in a forest glade, to call down the blessing of the Goddess on her sword. In a two hour ritual the Sword Dancer circle dances, singing, and cutting each of her limbs on her sword to shed a little blood. For the next three months her sword is immune to rust and breakage and also counts as a blessed weapon. The Sword Dancer may only have this blessing on one sword at a time.
In addition, a number of times per day equal to her charisma modifier, for a number of rounds equal to her charisma modifier, at the cost of one of her turn undead attempts for the day, as a free action the Sword Dancer can imbue her sword with the Sure Striking ability.
This blessing lasts for three months, at which time the sword loses all the benefits and abilities described above. Of course, the Sword Dancer can perform the ritual again, in order to re-bless her sword for another three months.
(This ritual, including the name, is taken right out of the book, pg 23, left column, bottom para. I just enhanced it a little, but I don't think overly, given the short duration, that it can be used on the blessed sword only, and that the blessing is something that must be renewed.)

Mobility: At fourth level the sword dancer recieves the Mobility feat for free.

Lesser Spellsong: Same as the sixth level ability of the published PrC.
(just moved because I feel this is a little more 'offensive', and I want to keep with the flip-flop. This also used to be a spell, but I think it works much better this way.)

Dancer's Grace: Sword Dancers are trained to cast spells while in pain and dodging about in combat. The Sword Dancer may use her dexterity modifier instead of her consitution modifer for concentration checks to cast spells while Casting Defensively or from taking damage.
(I'm still wondering if using the wisdom bonus wouldn't be better, but I'd like to avoid too much stuff based on one ability. It feels better, and perhaps a little more balanced, to me to have the Sword Dancer need a variety of skills and ability scores. This ability is based on an old idea from the 2e descriptions of Eilistraee's specialty priests.)

Spring Attack: At seventh level the Sword Dancer gains the Spring Attack feat for free.

Spellsong: Same as the ability of the published PrC at the same level.

Maiden's Final Dance: The ultimate expression of the graceful, flowing form of sword fighting preferred by Eilistraee's Sword Dancers. Once per day, while wielding a sword for which she possesses the Weapon Focus feat, the Sword Dancer can, for a number of rounds a day equal to 3 + her wisdom modifier, enter into a truly fluid, even frenetic dance of whirling sword work. Using this ability uses up one of the Sword Dancers turn undead attempts for the day. For the duration of the dance the Sword Dancer gains the ability to make a single move while taking the Full Attack action. This movement may be broken up any way the Sword Dancer wishes, before, between or after any of her attacks.
While using this ability, the Sword Dancer is subject to attacks of opportunity as usual for movement in combat, though she can use tumble as part of her movement, even attacking while tumbling. This ability may combined with any of the abilties above, and any other abilities, spells or feats the sword dancer possesses (she can continue singing as per Bardic Music) except for the Whirlind Attack feat.
For example, a Sword Dancer with a BAB of +14/+9/+4 and 30' movement can use this ability to attack one adjacent foe A, then tumble 10' to negate attacks of opportunity, attack enemy B, tumble another 10' to a enemy C, attack it, then move her last ten feet away, but having used all of her tumble movement enemy C gets an attack of opportunity against the Sword Dancer as she leaves combat.
If the Sword Dancer wishes to use any action than Full Attack, such as spell casting or drinking a potion, she loses her single move and that round of Maiden's Final Dance. She can continue back into the Dance the following round, however, without any other penalty.
The Sword Dancer may volountarily end the Maiden's Final Dance on her action any round after she begins using it. In addition, when the duration of the Maiden's Final Dance has expired, the Sword Dancer becomes fatigued, as described under the Barbarians Rage ability, for a number of rounds equal to half the number rounds she spent in the Dance.
(Kind of a Spring Attack Plus, but without negating attacks of opportunity. Pretty strong when you factor in various buffs, especially something like the spell Divine Power. Since this is the 10th level ability of a PrC, though, I don't think it's too much. Using it with Whirlwind Attack would be just abusive, though, so I negated it (It would read like she could attack everyone within her movement range!). If there's any other plain old abusive things you can think of, we should probably make sure they're exceptions as well.)

 

[Technik4]

You took a published prc designed for the cleric class (or a cleric/fighter) because it gains spellcasting at every level and buffed it. In tweaking it, you gave it better saves, better skills, the monk's wisdom to AC bonus, the bard's bardic music progression, immunity to sundering and rust (essentially), and a far better 10th level ability.

You substituted the half-feat ability to put enhance your blessed sword, the +2/+2 bonuses to attack and damage and +3 bonus vs mind-affects for CHA+level per day, and the Sword Dance, and Sword Shield abilities.

And you want to know if its balanced? Ok, I can see not agreeing with the flavor of the prc (especially given the 2e kit), but by just adding tons of abilities without taking anything of real importance away (everything you took away you replaced with equal or better abilities).

So lets take it from the top. Keep increased skill points, lose increased reflex saves. Keep Bardic Music (mostly flavor, fits with class), lose Sword Song (overly powerful, in the published prc part of the "cost" of the sword maiden's special abilities is that they suffer arcane spell failure, so a Sword Maiden can denounce armor and garauntee abilities work, or have a better AC but risk abilities failing once in a while). Switch Dancer's Grace and Lesser Spellsong, Dancer's Grace is actually a really weak ability but thats no reason to give Lesser Spellsong earlier than the published prc. Keep your attuning (easier to do, but must be renewed) if you think it fits the flavor better.

Ok, now we come to the 2 greatest divisions.

A) You totally reworked Sword Song (even changed the name to sword dance) changing from +2 attack and damage, and +3 vs mind-affecting spells and effects class level+CHA rounds per day to Immune Sunder, Immune Rust-attacks for 3 months (which is renewable) and Sure Striking for CHA times per day for CHA rounds. And its a blessed weapon.

Ok, that is a huge buff. If you like the Sure Striking thing more than attack and damage thats cool, I think since the sword maiden is singing I would keep +3 bonus vs mind-affecting stuff. I would get rid of the Turn-Undead usage (its not a theme of the class at all, plus bards (and druids) don't have turn undead uses and you specifically changd it to be more bard friendly), but keep the blessed weapon part (makes sense). Reduce the duration to the published prc and you're set.

B) You changed the ability to use expertise on a dancing sword (only 1 at a time) to some uber-extra-partial-action-practically hasted-death-frenzy. Or thats how it seemed to me . I would allow the Sword Maiden to act under the effects of "haste" [3.5] for a number of rounds equal to class level+CHA (the publisher's default duration for this prc's special abilities) as a free action. This gives the increased movement and an extra attack on a full-attack action (as well as +1 attack, dodge bonus, and reflex save)and wouldn't leave her fatigued. It could also be used to counter slow on herself as a free action, minor but nice.

After making those changes, lets review the net change (from published version to this hybrid, your ideas+my balance):

Lost ability to use sword as a dancing sword class level times per day for class-level+CHA rounds.
Lost ability to enhance your chosen attuned sword.
Lost final ability of giving a dancing sword expertise (up to +5).

Gained 2 skill points per level.
Gained ability to use DEX instead of CON for Concentration checks.
Gained final ability to haste herself as a free action for class level+CHA rounds per day.

Traded +2 to attacks and damage for Sure-Striking.
Traded a tenday of attuning (8 hours a day), for a 2 hour of attuning that lasts 3 mos. Personally I would change it to an 8 hour attuning (same as a day's work crafting an item, researching a new spell, etc) and let it last for a season. In this way, when the weather changed the maiden would know its time to reattune herself.

I'd say its fairly even. She still suffers arcane spell failure for using her Sure-Striking and Haste effects which discourages armor, but the class allows her to wear up to light. A monk maiden would be very formidable (at the cost of spellcasting).

Technik

 

[iDEATH]

Technik4

Hey, thanks for the great and detailed reply! That's the kind of thing I was looking for.

And you want to know if its balanced? Ok, I can see not agreeing with the flavor of the prc (especially given the 2e kit), but by just adding tons of abilities without taking anything of real importance away (everything you took away you replaced with equal or better abilities).

I tried really hard to think about the old 2e kit too much. It was really powerful. I was looking at the fluff most, and my own vision of them. As for the stuff I added, yeah, they are better abilities. One reason for my doing this is that when I compared the Sword Dancer to other PrCs I didn't see things adding up. Given the requirements, I didn't feel she was coming out on par with the majority of other PrCs (and I'm not talking about the Forest Master; that's just silly).

Keep increased skill points, lose increased reflex saves.

It's the will saves that were increased over the published PrC. We were talking about this too, leaving the saves as they are in the book.

lose Sword Song (overly powerful, in the published prc part of the "cost" of the sword maiden's special abilities is that they suffer arcane spell failure, so a Sword Maiden can denounce armor and garauntee abilities work, or have a better AC but risk abilities failing once in a while).

This is one place I am not bending on. This is central to my vision, reflecting how I think a Sword Dancer would look in a fight scene. I really mean 'vision' as in visualising.

I disagree with it being overly powerful, as well. Lots of classes use similar abilities, and while always a good ability, it's not as good as a +2 mithril chain shirt. Especially limited by the Sword Dancer needing her sword to use it. Disarm her...

Dancer's Grace is actually a really weak ability but thats no reason to give Lesser Spellsong earlier than the published prc.

It is weak. I tried to do something more in flavour with some of the old fluff than worry about power levels. As for switching them back, yeah, that'd be easy enough.

I simply didn't figure that giving Lesser Spellsong a level earlier would be a big deal, and I wanted the flip-flop, as I said. Can you tell me why you think it is a real issue (the one thing you didn't really exlpain )?

Immune Sunder, Immune Rust-attacks for 3 months (which is renewable) and Sure Striking for CHA times per day for CHA rounds. And its a blessed weapon.

This one I wondered about.

The unbreakable and immune to rust are straight out of fluff. That's the reason they are there; I wanted to reflect the Sword Dance ritual that's been mentioned since way back in the Drow of the Underdark book.

In my experience, sunder and rust hardly ever come into play. Being unbreakable is more useful for doing interesting things, like barring a door temporarily, than worrying about your sword getting broken. Same with Blessed, unless you take frequent trips trip to the Abyss...but it's certainly something that could be dropped.

I do really like Sure Striking. It feels like a neat little 'blessing' from a Goddess to call onto a sword, allowing you damage pretty much anything without being overly powerful itself. I didn't worry about the +s to hit and damage since they will come with the Sword Dancer actually singing now, since she's got the Bardic Music ability, which she could get by multi-classing to bard, anyway, but now doesn't have to. I really think Bardic Music is good for the Sword Dancer, given Eilistraee's portfolio.

I would get rid of the Turn-Undead usage (its not a theme of the class at all, plus bards (and druids) don't have turn undead uses and you specifically changd it to be more bard friendly),

Heh. I didn't have the turn thing in there in the first place. That was my DM's suggestion. We thought of it more as just a way to reflect the channeling of divine power, rather than anything actually undead related, something like a few feats, such as Divine Vigour. Also keep in mind that Eilistraee doesn't allow druids, and her alignment means no paladins. Thus, a Sword Dancer must be at least a 3rd level cleric, so she'll have the Turn Undead ability from there. Well, she could be ranger, I suppose, but why?

B) You changed the ability to use expertise on a dancing sword (only 1 at a time) to some uber-extra-partial-action-practically hasted-death-frenzy. Or thats how it seemed to me . I would allow the Sword Maiden to act under the effects of "haste" [3.5] for a number of rounds equal to class level+CHA (the publisher's default duration for this prc's special abilities) as a free action. This gives the increased movement and an extra attack on a full-attack action (as well as +1 attack, dodge bonus, and reflex save)and wouldn't leave her fatigued. It could also be used to counter slow on herself as a free action, minor but nice.

Ah, the main reason for my posting this...

Yeah, I was just trying to come up with something original; I thought the barbarian's Rage would make a good model, so I started from there. I really like your idea of changing to 3.5s Haste. I never even considered that one.

Hmm, gotta got to work...I'll see if there's any more replies when I get home, and then edit the first message to reflect some of these changes. Thanks again, Technik4!

 

[Technik4]

I'm awaiting to see how you revise what you've got, but I'll try and give some more advice.

Firstly cleric is the most powerful class in the game, hands down. Hence, prcs for clerics that offer full spell progression tend to get a raised eyebrow, especially if its coming with a lot of cool baggage.

One of the things the printed prc does is try to offer a couple disadvantages, to allow for more advantages. First there is the reduction in what type of armor they use, this isn't your full-plate cleric. Second, adding arcane spell failure for a couple of the abilities, further hammering home weaker armor. By giving them an ability that encourages not wearing armor at all, you weaken one of the disadvantages.

While this mechanic is in a lot of prcs, I feel it is overused (personal opinion). Did 2e specialty priests use armor? Further, limiting it to when she has a weapon is inherently a bigger disadvantage (as you pointed out) and makes her kind-of 1-trick ponyish. Sunder or disarm her attuned weapon, she is mince-meat. The published prc could cause her weapon to dance if it was disarmed, then pull-back and let loose with some spells (yours can do this also, but without armor she is at a serious disadvantage).

As far as the Dancer's Grace vs Lesser Spellsong, when altering prcs I try to alter as little as possible, especially with respect to when prcs gain abilities. It wasn't a huge leap, which made me wonder why you did it in the first place. Dancer's Grace really feels more like a first level ability, whereas Lesser Spellsong seems like something that shouldn't be obtainable until x, where x is usually where the designer put it .

Giving full bardic music (I was under the misconception this let bardic music stack with bard's natural progression, implying that you must have a level or 2 of bard to receive the benefit) is pretty powerful. Especially with 3.5e on the horizon.

As far as the turn-undead usage, it affects rangers as you pointed out, as well as bards (who seem like they should be allowed into this prc without divine spellcasting, personally). Maybe the requirement could be "ability to cast Cure Moderate Wounds". This allows bards, rangers, and clerics to join up and personally I don't see a problem with druids joining. It would be min 8th level ranger, min 4th level bard, min 3rd level cleric, however since the feat restrictions are so stiff it will probably be a 9th level PC taking the prc (maybe 6th level cleric, if she can get a feat or 2 from domains).

Barbarian's Rage isn't a bad ability, but I don't think it fits the class personally. Have you seen the "Sohei" class in OA? It has a similar "rage" but it is dexterity based, that could be something if your dm doesnt like giving haste.

Technik

 

[Anabstercorian]

The Blade Dancer was overpowered as is. This is WORSE. I hate you forever.

Well, not really, but I really hate what you've done to the class. It needs to have the hell nerfed out of it.

 

[Andion Isurand]

HOW IS THIS VERSION?

********************************************

BLADE DANCER

Prerequisites:

Must be a Drow or half-Drow female.

Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Exotic Weapon Proficency (bastard sword)

Balance (5 ranks), Jump (5 ranks), Tumble (5 ranks)

Ability to cast 3rd level Divine spells
granted by the deity, Eilistraee.

********************************************

d6 Hit Dice

high Base Attack Bonus

bad Fort save
good Ref Save
bad Will save

4 + Int skills

Lvl 01 // +1 divine spellcaster level // Blade Dancing
Lvl 02 // +1 divine spellcaster level // Acrobatics (+10)
Lvl 03 // +1 divine spellcaster level //
Lvl 04 // +1 divine spellcaster level // Fast Movement (+10)
Lvl 05 // +1 divine spellcaster level // Acrobatics (+20)
Lvl 06 // +1 divine spellcaster level //
Lvl 07 // +1 divine spellcaster level // Fast Movement (+20)
Lvl 08 // +1 divine spellcaster level // Acrobatics (+30)
Lvl 09 // +1 divine spellcaster level //
Lvl 10 // +1 divine spellcaster level // Maiden's Flurry


********************************************

Sword Dancing (Ex): When wearing no armor or shields, carrying no more than a light load and fighting with a sword (of her same size category) in one hand while having nothing in the other, the Blade Dancer gains a dodge bonus to her AC equal to her intelligence modifier (if positive).

Acrobatics (Ex): When wearing light or no armor and carrying no more than a light load, the Blade Dancer gains the listed Competence Bonus to Balance, Jump & Tumble, after reaching certain levels.

Fast Movement (Su): When wearing no armor and carrying no more than a light load, the Blade Dancer gains the listed Sacred Bonus to to her base land movement speed.

Maiden's Flurry (Su): When wearing no armor or shields, carrying no more than a light load and fighting with a sword (of her same size category) in one hand while having nothing in the other, the Blade Dancer can perform a full attack action at the end of a charge.