[FR] Waterdeep in Ashes

[Sarellion]

I thought the whole point about sacking Waterdeep is that the players were sitting on their hands. As I understood it is more about teaching the players a lesson.

Instead of sacking Waterdeep how about declaring the PCs deserters? They didn´t do their job, they didn't even try!!! Perhaps someone else did or thearmy did not even march on Waterdeep but is threatiening other regions? Waterdeep cannot help their allies anymore and some of their cities have been looted?

The PCs cannot run home to mommy anymore, they have to leave the country and probably hate the city of splendors.

I never played in Fr so I can´t comment about the original question. But I think that threadstarter seems to be more concerned about the lack of action, the run home attitude and doesn´t like being stuck with destroying the city.

 

[mmu1]

Gates- Sure your army can move through these into the city, but what about using operatives to build gates from nasty planes (baator or the abyss) all around the city, disguised as common things. Then, under that threat, a diplomat and a gated army ala the lichqueen could easily take down waterdeep without a blow being struck.

Here we go again... Gate lasts ONE round per level, so an army actually can't really use them to move into a city, unless it's very small army - if you had enough 17th+ level spellcasters to pull it off, the army itself would be completely irrelevant compared to what they could do.

Also, using Gate to summon something from another plane costs 1000xp.

Not to mention that all the high level wizards and clerics in the place would likely have something to say about that, and that this particular army is being led by 6th-10th level wizards, so it's not exactly going to be gating anything in anytime soon.

Like I said before, I think you need to reduce the scope of this invasion somewhat... Or really crank it up to justify the extent of it. Is there nothing around in your world that they could conceivably capture without stretching believeability that'd make the players feel the pain?
Perhaps use this situation as a way to make a future attack on Waterdeep possible - it gives the players a chance to get their stuff together, but there'll be serious consequences if they keep procrastinating...

 

[Mystery Man]

Also, using Gate to summon something from another plane costs 1000xp

High level casters could do a grand standing on their head.


You're right though, consequences and repercussions abound.

 

[ashockney]

This thread seems to be going in two directions (at the same time) and it would be helpful to have some clarification from Marimarr on which he would like us to resolve.

1) What does it take to sac Waterdeep? How could an army of humanoids led by mid-level zhents do it?

2) How do I teach my players a lesson for shirking their duties, and constantly relying on "powerful" allies of FR?

On the first point, should you care at all about maintaining stability to the realm, you will need something really FANTASTIC to believeably storm Waterdeep with such an army. As has been mentioned, an avatar, the death of a god, the falling of a meteor, etc. Or, buff up your army and tactics significantly. Or, reduce the impact you'd like to achieve (ie, what about sac'ing Secomber or Neverwinter en route to Waterdeep?).

On the second point, if you sac Waterdeep, the new "Waterdeep" will be Silverymoon. This will start a slippery slope of your destroying every powerful good town in the realms potentially. More importantly, if you are having problems with players obtaining too much help, you can do a couple of things:

1) Lower the "importance" of the player's tasks. Not everything a player character does has to be of earth-shattering consequence! What about just recovering an old family heirloom...that's NOT an ARTIFACT! Or a RELIC!

2) Keep the big boys busier. As bad as the PC's concerns are, their allies are worse! They shouldn't probably be getting the time of day with any leaders, let alone sergeants/lieutenants to address their problems. There are much bigger problems to contend with and prevent, namely all the wonderful things that are spelled out on this thread. Keep them busy doing these things and "another humanoid army in the north" although important, isn't really such a big deal on their scale.

 

[jester47]

Here we go again... Gate lasts ONE round per level...

Also, using Gate to summon something...

Not to mention that all the high level wizards and clerics in the place would likely have something to say about that, and that this particular army is being led by 6th-10th level wizards, so it's not exactly going to be gating anything in anytime soon.

doh! I meant Portals!

Aaron.

 

[Mystery Man]

As a final thought, I just want to mention the ramifications of this. If do-gooders from all over the realms flock to Waterdeep to prevent its destruction and fail, what happens then? Surely at least some of these people will die in the battle.

Don't forget the ramifications of having them all in one place on one end of the contintent, whilst chaos and mayhem ensues where they're not. Cats away, mice play etc.

That post was great btw.

 

[Valiantheart]

Don't forget the ramifications of having them all in one place on one end of the contintent, whilst chaos and mayhem ensues where they're not. Cats away, mice play etc.

That post was great btw.

What you mean the Realms might be a more balanced and interesting place to play?

 

[MaxKaladin]

Emphasis on "somehow". This sort of thing would be a snap in some other games (Hero System leaps to mind) but D&D spells always seem to have really small areas of effect. I think the invading army in question was described as being led by 6th-10th level spellcasters? Without access to epic spells, how do you take a spell that normally has a 10' radius, and make it cover an entire city?

I'm just throwing out ideas. Waterdeep has access to some really impressive magic and you'll need some yourself to take the city.

As an offhand thought, I'd look at the Chaos Magic rules in the Mongoose product of that name and I'd also check out ritual magic rules from Relics and Rituals and similar places for potential methods of increasing the radius of such effects. That probably still won't do it. That's ok because there are other really nasty things one can do to a city but I'm reluctant to name them at the moment because I might use some of them in my campaign and I don't want my players to know what they are....

And if we're just talking generally here, not about this specific campaign scenario but just about what would be involved in sacking Waterdeep: if you have access to epic spells, do you in fact need an invading army?

Of course you do. I don't know who it was, but someone or other had to invent the old military saw about how you don't own ground until you have an 18 year old with a rifle standing on it. Change the age and weapon to match your chosen troop type and it applies to the realms just as well as our world.

 

[MaxKaladin]

Don't forget the ramifications of having them all in one place on one end of the contintent, whilst chaos and mayhem ensues where they're not. Cats away, mice play etc.

That post was great btw.

Thanks!

Even if the Zhents don't have any real hope of taking Waterdeep, wouldn't it be terribly devious of them to sacrifice a fairly big army made up mostly of hastily recruited cannon fodder like orcs and goblins in a feint?

What if everyone leaps to the rescue and suddenly Zhent agents at home strike while the good guys are all away saving Waterdeep and posing heroicly for the press....

 

[Cheiromancer]

I know nothing about Mythals, and even less about the one in Waterdeep. But supposed it were flawed? Suppose that it caused a shadow reality to become superimposed on the real Waterdeep?

The shadow reality is one where Shar is the goddess of Magic, and Bane is the head of the Faerunian Pantheon. In that world the Harpers are no more, and the "good" gods are either dead or reduced in status.

Suddenly, Waterdeep is a darker, more sinister place. Its citizens are more grasping, cruel, and treacherous. The "evil twins" of the most prominent citizens of Waterdeep are active, and opposed (of course) to their good counterparts.

If the Zhentish arrival coincided with the "shadowing of Waterdeep" then things could be very dire. Especially if the evil counterparts of the party are present, but the party isn't. That tiny imbalance could represent catastrophe.

Of course, one presumes that the forces of good will be able to reverse the shadowing (perhaps by destroying the mythal), but while this is going on the zhents are unopposed, and actually seize the city. After battling their shadow reality counterparts, the defenders of the city just don't have enough left in them to effectively resist the zhents.

Now, I know my terminology is wrong- there are nuances to zhents and zhentarim and zhentils and what have you- and, as I mentioned before I am extremely vague on the subject of mythals, but perhaps something along these lines would work?