[FR] Waterdeep in Ashes

[orangefruitbat]

What about a defeat that is less than total?

Lots of posters had stated that Waterdeep itself is impregnible due to its powerful magical defenses, significant physical defenses, large size and number of powerful characters. And this is all true. If you want to credibly shatter Waterdeep, you have to take these things into accound.

However, none of this prevents an expeditionary force sent out from being destroyed. Khelben and the seven sisters don't march out with every forary. So Waterdeep might suffer a military misadventure outside of its walls.

I could easily see Waterdeep being placed under siege - it has the magical capabilities to keep an invading army out, but not the forces required to break the siege. Now the big problem comes from trying to calm and FEED a city of almost a 1,000,000 people. Even with clerics creating food, there won't be enough to go around. Oh, and plagues tend to be a problem during sieges as well.

Despite the above, I don't think even the threat of a large army, in and of itself, would be an overwhelming threat to the city since high-level characters could stage raids, assasinate leaders, summon magical allies,etc. So, I think you would need some extra punch.

Here are a few suggestions:
*powerful monstrous allies. An ancient red dragon or a flight of lesser dragons is a fiersome foe, even for arch-wizards. Burn city burn!
*sorcerous allies. Red Wizards, Calishmites, Nethese, liches. Enough to neutralize Waterdeep's magical advantage.
*religous allies. What if an avatar of Bane or Malar shows up? (Look at what happened to Evermeet)
*extra plannar allies - a portal opens up in the city, releasing hordes of demons. Memories of Myth Drannor anyone? Alternatively, githyanki.
*military allies - pirates blocking shipping and supplies, drow from the Underdark, orcs from the Spine of the World
*betrayal from within. A key defender betrays the city for some reason - revenge, lust for power, blackmailed?
*secret enemies. Assasins, mindflayers, beholders in the city take out key defenders at inopportune times.
*magic problems. For some reason, a field of dead magic sweaps over a portion of city, allowing for no magic at all.
*disease, faminine, pestilence. The classics of war.

 

[mmu1]

Gate.

Nope. Not nearly enough duration.

Teleportation Circle, on the other hand, would technically be able to handle it, although things like supply wagons and larger creatures would be a problem, since it's only 10' in diameter - but it still doesn't address the issue of how an army would be supposed to operate several hundred miles from home with no supply line.

Anyway, to get this back on topic...

You don't necessarily need to lay complete waste to Waterdeep to get the PC's attention and make them realize they can't always take their time... Some possibilities:

1. The army was turned away from Waterdeep, and will destroy / has destroyed something smaller but also relatively important.

2. Someone took advantage of the unsuccessful attack to steal an artifact / murder an important person / kindap someone in the confusion, and the PC's get stuck with fixing things.

3. A section of the city has been overrun before the siege was lifted and members of the defeated army took to the sewers / Skullport and will need to be rooted out.

 

[eXodus]

sadly the FRCS and all of the other FR books do not give the baddies a chance. look at the NPCs and all of the really kick ass ones are good guys.

so by the books, the church of bane and the zhentish hordes could not win.

but, i say to hell with books.

make waterdeep burn!

what sort of recourse would happen from such a war?

the economy of the sword coast all the way up to the north would crumble. the biggest trade center would be gone. there would be mass starvation, rioting, utter chaos.

i personally like it.

i have been running a FR game since november of 2001 and i have slowly been destroying it and remaking it in something not so gooey with NPC power.

hell, elminster and the other ubermages do not even exist in my game.

good luck making waterdeep sink!

 

[Gregor]

Why not make Waterdeep under siege when the PCs arrive? Make the city close to falling, there is fighting in the streets and the PCs have to find and kill off the enemy leaders to try and force the army to lose morale and flee? Would make a pretty sweet campaign!

Cheers,

 

[Marimmar@Home]

Damn, had I known that this thread would cause so much response I would have posted it at a time where I actually could attend, unfortunately I'm away visiting Castles in the Elsaß region until tuesday.

The input you gave me is incredible, the things to consider when trying to bring something down like Waterdeep a indeed manyfold. The last things I learned about Waterdeep are from the FR1 and the Avatar trilogy. I haven't read any newer material like that presented in recent novels so I'm not up to date about current happenings in the city.

Well the thread keeps subscribed so feel free to post more, I'll get to it.

~Marimmar

 

[Wikidogre]

Well lets see what i can come up with for you here...btw this is a excellent sounding camp. its about time someone slese put the city of splenders through hell.

Ok Ill give you the situation as which i had it back in the days of 2nd ed. As for the Harpers, too me they where like the french resistance, they would pull sabatoge missions and such looking to covertly weaken the new occupants.
As for Blackstaff and the ruling council, i see them as ousted into the expanse surrounding the city in sort of a base camp in turn trying too salvage what is left of there army and trying too recruit more also helping the citizens that made it out.
Now on too the Purple dragons, pure and simple they have there own problems to worry about.
Now as for Elminster and the other choosen, well think of situations that would keep them occupied like smaller armys gathers too threaten there respective areas of the world, hence keeping there eyes turned home, giving your villin time too amass a larger army too defend his newly claimed city and expanse. Ultimatly providing and endless supply of adventure ideas for the characters.
Like:
working with the harpers
travelling too help defned other citys, tryand help blackstaff and the militia cut off supply lines....ect ect ect.

Hope this info helps. Have fun and happy adventureing.

 

[Valiantheart]

I think you would have an easier time conquering Sigil than you would Waterdeep. In any event, I just dont see how its even plausible for the Zhents to do it alone.

But if you really want to I always am fond of the time honored tradition of Orcish hordes. You could cut a swath of destruction from the Spine, through Luskan and Neverwinter all the way through Waterdeep. If you going to take Waterdeep you mind as well crush everything along the way.

The biggest problem of taking Waterdeep are the heroes of course. I think the average peasant in Waterdeep is level 14 or something. To counteract that I would suggest the following things:

*An alliance of evil - Zhents, Shades, Red Wizards, Demons, Devils, Liches, and a couple of badass Epic Great Wyrm Dragons too.
*Involve another powerful nation by hook or crook - Calimsham might be the one land capable of matching the magical power level of Waterdeep
*Anti-magic demons/magical beast/temporary items/whatevers - the best way to neutralize the UberNPCs is with some type of anti-magic shock troops. It doesnt matter what they are. Just make sure they are mobile and immune to anything the UberMages want to throw (Spell fire excepting). Those pseudo-demon things that were used in Cormyr would be a great example or something like the Legates from Midnight.
*The biggest impact would be the utter destruction of Waterdeep. It would cause complete instability of the North and likely cause wars amongst the surviving nations for the next century. Trade would be completely disrupted in the whole region and all manner of wicked things would probably move into the power gulf created.
*The populace - Enslave them, kill them, teleport them, or eat them, but dont let anything stay in the city. Halaster would likely use the opportunity to grab several hundred subject for his magical experiments.
*Speaking of Halaster - what a golden opportunity for him to revert back to his old ways. Let his insanity seize hold of him again and he could work from the inside of Waterdeep killing the powerful individuals who would defend the city. Nothing is better than a traitor in the midst.

 

[MaxKaladin]

Hmmm, I'm seeing a lot of statements that just don't mesh with established realms "canon".

First of all, there is this 1 million number. Yes, it says Waterdeep has 1.3 million or so people in the FRCS, but if you continue reading, it also gives a population of "only" 132,000 or thereabouts for the metropolis itself. The rest would be the population of the lands Waterdeep controls and would only come into play if a significant number of them took refuge in the city walls. That creates a whole new set of problems with disease and strain on the water/food supply, not to mention space.

Another thing is that some people are talking like an invading Zhentish army would have to come from Zhentil Keep and be supplied from there. This just isn't true. The Zhentarim long ago took over the large town of Llorkh in the Greypeak mountains as a staging point for their operations on this side of the Anauroch. There is no reason it couldn't be used as a supply stockpile. The Zhents could have supplies slowly built up by caravans in preparation for the invasion so that there is a secure source of supply much closer than Zhentil Keep. Ditto for troops. Once you have supplies built up, start bringing what troops you need from Zhentil Keep in and mass them at Llorkh until you're ready to invade. There's also plenty of wild countryside around there to recruit humanoids from. While this doesn't mesh well with the thing about the Waterdhavian army getting trapped in the Anauroch, it makes for a fine way to justify a Zhentish army.

Hmm, I suppose Waterdeep could have besieged Llorkh while the main body of their army pursued the Zhentish army further east over the pass towards Anauroch and then got trapped while trying to bring them to battle. The successful Zhentish army then turned back and lifted the siege on Llorkh.

Also, based out of Llorkh, a Zhentish Army would have little between it and Waterdeep but a lot of open space and a few small towns. There's Orlbar, which is Zhent Controlled, IIRC. There's Loudwater, which benefits greatly from Zhentish trade, has a Zhentish presence trying to undermine the local government and which could probably be persuaded to allow free passage. There's Zeebros, which is just a wide spot in the road as I recall. Then there's Secomber with all of a thousand or so people. There's also Uluvin and Amphail, which are also small villages and Goldenfields, which is a strategic target providing a lot of Waterdeep's grain and which you either want to capture or cut off from Waterdeep anyway. There just isn't much between Llorkh and Waterdeep.

Furthermore, you can barge most of your supplies down the mighty Dessarin river to Secomber, at least, and then by road to Waterdeep. You could even barge them to Daggerford for either transshipment to Waterdeep or a relatively short road trip to Waterdeep. Daggerford is also not very big. This would greatly aid your supply situation.

It seems to me getting an army to Waterdeep isn't nearly as much trouble as you might think.

To add to the list of folks willing to help Waterdeep I suggest random adventurers who make the city their base. "Hey, I left my stuff in Waterdeep! We have to help them!"

As far as taking the city, its true that Waterdeep has formidable defenses. At the same time all the enemy really needs is a good trick up its sleeve and you might just overcome all that. My favorite thought is if you could somehow generate a large anti-magic field. Deprived of both magical defenses and magical escape routes for the most potent defenders, Waterdeep would be dealt a truly devastating blow.

I'd also note that an alliance with Skullport could be extremely valuable. Just imagine the horrors commanded by the powers of skullport emerging in the middle of the city while the army tries to hold the walls.

As a final thought, I just want to mention the ramifications of this. If do-gooders from all over the realms flock to Waterdeep to prevent its destruction and fail, what happens then? Surely at least some of these people will die in the battle. Perhaps there will even be a true slaughter of potent do-gooders if there is something like the aforementioned anti-magic field preventing them from fleeing by teleport, gate and other magical means. Such an event could leave much of the realms with a sudden lack of competent defenders and with evil ascendant.

 

[mmu1]

Another thing is that some people are talking like an invading Zhentish army would have to come from Zhentil Keep and be supplied from there. This just isn't true. The Zhentarim long ago took over the large town of Llorkh in the Greypeak mountains as a staging point for their operations on this side of the Anauroch. There is no reason it couldn't be used as a supply stockpile. The Zhents could have supplies slowly built up by caravans in preparation for the invasion so that there is a secure source of supply much closer than Zhentil Keep. Ditto for troops. Once you have supplies built up, start bringing what troops you need from Zhentil Keep in and mass them at Llorkh until you're ready to invade. There's also plenty of wild countryside around there to recruit humanoids from. While this doesn't mesh well with the thing about the Waterdhavian army getting trapped in the Anauroch, it makes for a fine way to justify a Zhentish army.

And when they do this, the Silver Marches, Cormyr and the Dales just sit on their hands doing nothing?

It's not the idea that Waterdeep can't be sacked - anything can be, with enough resources - it's that, given how the world is laid out, it's about the least likely city in North-Western Faerun to be captured by the Zhents, and it makes no sense at all for them to capture it.
If they actually had the resources to do it, they'd have to be out of their minds not to go for the Silver Marches or the Dales, or Cormyr, or try to reestablish their control of Darkhold and go for the Western Heartlands...

Not that I'm some kind of FR purist (first thing I did when I ran a FR game is to tone down the ridiculous power level a few clicks, and re-adjust nonsense like a metropolis every 50 miles in areas that could never support the population...), but I think that sweeping changes to a world work best when you keep cause and effect in mind, FR is disjointed enough as it is.

 

[Zaukrie]

I'd suggest two more ways you could "take" Waterdeep.

Buy Monte Cook's book "When the Sky Falls", have the bad guys either predict that a meteor strikes in/near Waterdeep and time the attach then, or have them bring down a meteor. The book has some great ideas on how this could be used to bring down a big city. Plus, it opens some cool plots that even the bad guys might now be ready for. At some point, your PCs may be forced to team up with the bad guys that brought down the meteor to handle what came with it.

Another option is to have a God die in Waterdeep, and have real consequences of that. The Realms I've been designing in my head for the past few years combines some ideas from the Scarred Lands with the god's war in the Realms to make the death of gods have a much larger impact on the world. Maybe the Zhents arranged the sacrifice of a God within Waterdeep to be followed by an attack on the city. (I'll try not to plug Monte's book on the death of gods, but I like his event books)

The death of a God has many possibilities as a DM's plot driving tool that it should be saved for something big, like taking Waterdeep.

Anyway, two more ideas on how it could be done that are more "fantastic" than disease.