FR: What's up with Lolth? (Spoilers, please)

Who left the cage door to the Wizards boards open? Rabid FR-fans are hijacking our threads and turning them into arguments about Realms minutiae ;)

Anyway, to get back on topic (there was one, really): "What's up with Lolth" ?

The stuff that happened so far (Spoiler heavy)

Spider Kissers (sorry, I mean clerics of Lolth - Vhaeraunite's shining through again) woke up one day to find that Lolth has gone silent. No more new spells for them. For a while, they could keep it secret by using what they got sparingly and supplementing that with magic items, but it was found out, and it resulted in slave rebellions, male rebellions, rebellions of other drow churges, and attacks from other races. A couple of cities were overrun or destroyed (Ched Nasad is the most prominent city that's turned into ash). A party of "Heroes" was sent out from Menzoberranzan to investigate things - first about other cities, as they didn't know whether it was limited to one city. First, they found the fane of Lolth, at the heart of Layer 66 on the Abyss, locked. After Vhaeraun tried to get in by force and was held in check by Selvetarm (dunno how that could happen, by all means Vhaeraun should have been able to dispatch his son with ease), they traveled some more and finally found out about the relocation of Lolth's divine realm to its own plane, and were told things by new handmaiden creatures of lolth (and sent into the new location, but their walking through the portal was the last you read about them). At the end of book 5 in the series, clerics got their spells again, but Lolth answered differently than before, instead of with a voice, she answers with primal thoughts. Oh, and one priestess of Eilistraee is on her way to kill Lolth, armed with a weapon that, with the proper strike, could fell even a god with a single blow (sounded very much like a vorpal sword)

In every book, Bob Salvatore wrote an intro, where the continued things inside Lolth's "delivery room" were recounted:, She lay eggs by the million. The eggs hatched, a wild frenzy ensued as they started to eat each other to become more powerful. First, the weakest died. Then, the stongest died as others ganged up on them - Lolth doesn't want survival of the strongest, but survival of the smartest. Don't show off and give others clues.

So the fact is that Lolth was absent (not dead or something) and has now just returned, and changed, but you don't know anything much about the change really.

Some speculations about it:
- She's a greater goddess now. Wouldn't be the only power shift, as Kiaransalee is now minor goddess because of the Silence-induced influx of worshippers. (Other deities will have changes, and they will be detailed in a RPG product, but what changes, and what product, hasn't been reveiled yet).

- She changes her alignment/outlook. While some speak about NE because MM drow are NE, everything in the books speaks against it. There, the fact that she's a goddess of Chaos is stressed several times. So I think that she might even become CN (with a brutal streak), as her new voice she speaks to clerics with is "primal and pure emotion" instead of a real voice.

- She doesn't get out alive. It might still be that Eilistraee's plan succeeds and Lolth will be killed by a mortal, in a moment of weakness. Or maybe some other deity, probably Vhaeraun, will hear about the new Demonweb Pits, sneak in, and slay her.
 

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Psion,

I'm sure as I am the Sage of the Scarred Lands.

(Btw nice little ditty. I prefer this one though:

*As sung by Ozzy "Deathbringer" Unborn.*

Now the time is near
For the Demon Prince to spread fear!
Undead rise from their grave
Killing all that don't call out his name!

Orcus!
Orcus!

Okay maybe not as good as your but still! Iron Man rules! ;) )
 

Sammael said:
I wasn't "disturbed" in the BoVD sense of the word. More like... "I can't believe I am playing in the world that was created by this person, and enjoying it." But I get that from a lot of designers, so it could be me...
Are you saying your disturbed by elements of the setting, or elements of Ed's personality? If it's the former, I'm curious what they are. If it's the latter, you can keep that to yourself. ;)
 

Apologies for another tangent, but...
Cthulhudrew said:
He went off to Arvandor to serve as his Proxy, as I recall. In any case, after that (short story in Dragon #247), he left Enoreth's service in Arvandor and returned to earth as his cleric. That was May '98, and DD came out in Oct '98. There isn't any mention there of Chosen, but given their relationship (very unlike worshipper/worshipped) I could see Enoreth choosing him as his Chosen- Vartan helps to reconnect Enoreth with the realities of mortal life, which his removal as a deity keeps him distant from. This is the sort of thing that was developed in the FR comic.
On Hallowed Ground may have stated that he was his proxy; I know DD did state it (both proxy & Chosen are mentioned on the absolute bottom of page 117). I thought the series ended with them just shaking hands (figuratively), & Vartan agreeing to become his cleric again? Puttint it another way, I personally don't think Vartan would have wanted to become Labelas' Chosen, even if Labelas wanted him to, IMO.

And actually, the FR comic just developed & showed how much of an a-h0l3 a god could be, & Vartan called him on it. :D

Alzrius said:
Noumea Drathchild is in The Magister (IIRC Alvaerele Tasundrym is in there too) and the novel Cloak of Shadows. I think Nadrathen is in the novel The Temptation of Elminster, but I can't find anything to back that up.

Ilyana, and her mother, Queen Amlaruil are named as Chosen of the Seldarine (from what I've been told) in the novel Evermeet.

I can't find the entry for Jeryth Phaulkon, but she's mentioned in more than one product, and the Emerald Enclave are in The Vilhon Reach.

I'm pretty sure I remember Shar's Chosen being mentioned in Underdark, but I can't find a reference.

Liriel Baenre is called Lolth's Chosen (for a while) in the novel Windwalker.

Anth-Malar is mentioned as Malar's Chosen on page 41 of Dungeon #103.
Whatever I didn't quote, or don't mention, assume I agree with you (as if you need my agreement), or I got learned. ;)

  • Alvaerele Tasundrym isn't mentioned in Secrets of the Magister. Somewhere else I suppose.
  • I don't remember any details from Evermeet (let alone anything really specific like Chosen), but if you say so, that's fine by me.
  • Do you remember who calls Liriel Lolth's Chosen? Is it a character in the book, or an out of character reference?
Now that I think about it, it seems lots of authors/writers are just slinging the mantle of Chosen onto characters for the Hell of it, not because it makes sense. You should revise/update & post the Chosen list, just so that some people/groups will have an OOC Red List (Vampire the Masquarade reference, BTW).
 


saucercrab said:
On Hallowed Ground may have stated that he was his proxy; I know DD did state it (both proxy & Chosen are mentioned on the absolute bottom of page 117). I thought the series ended with them just shaking hands (figuratively), & Vartan agreeing to become his cleric again?

Don't know about the series (don't have the ending, just most of the rest), but the Dragon article had him as Labelas' proxy. At the end of that, though, he did give up his proxy status and returned to the Realms as his cleric. You'd think they'd have corrected that in Demihuman Deities, as that came out in October (the Dragon article was May), but the change probably happened when DD had already been written, but not yet released.

Puttint it another way, I personally don't think Vartan would have wanted to become Labelas' Chosen, even if Labelas wanted him to, IMO.

They seemed to have come to a pretty good understanding in the Dragon article. Vartan was still willing to call Labelas on his crap, and Labelas was willing to tolerate Vartan's indiscretions. Their relationship was pretty much a friendship at that point, albeit a god/mortal friendship. The two must have gone through some pretty fundamental changes in the years since the ending of the series.

Anyway, enough about Vartan. Back to Lolth. :)
 

Mystery Man said:
Anything that Ed puts down in writing and makes public is considered canon. Written across the universe with a godlike indelable pencil canon. And you can verify that with whomever you wish if you don't believe me.

That's doesn't need verification, as it's patently untrue.

Anything that any of the design team put out personally is non-canon. It has to actually be on the WotC's website, in one of their books, or in some other approved material (e.g. Dungeon or Dragon) to be canon. Stuff he posts on a website or stuff he's quoted on isn't even close to being canon.
 

saucercrab said:
Apologies for another tangent, but...
On Hallowed Ground may have stated that he was his proxy; I know DD did state it (both proxy & Chosen are mentioned on the absolute bottom of page 117).

Okay, I knew there was something else that called him that. I just couldn't remember if DD came after that short story or not. :)

Alvaerele Tasundrym isn't mentioned in Secrets of the Magister. Somewhere else I suppose.

Alvaerele Tasundrym is mentioned as a Chosen (without annotation) over on the Forgotten Realms Mailing List FAQ, which I find to be mostly reliable (though they say the Emerald Enclave is the Chosen of Silvanus and not the other two deities also).

I don't remember any details from Evermeet (let alone anything really specific like Chosen), but if you say so, that's fine by me.

I'm just working off of hearsay myself there, since I haven't read the book either. ;)

Do you remember who calls Liriel Lolth's Chosen? Is it a character in the book, or an out of character reference?

Kuje provided me with the direct quote back on the WotC boards, but I can't find it there now. That said, it was a conversation Triel was having with someone. They toss around the drow term for "Chosen of Lolth" and then it's explained that that's what that term means.
 


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