France Releases Classified UFO Files
- Thread starter jaerdaph
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Umbran said:
Ok, this is where I have another problem. Why would they (aliens) "throw massive amount of resources" at a project like "fly across the galaxy and abduct sentient species to perform questionable medical experiments on them"? And before anyone answers "they're aliens, who says they will think the same as us", let me just say that is not a satisfactory answer. We can't hypothesize the existence of intelligent, extraterrestrial creatures hiding in our own solar system without a reasonable idea of why they would do such a thing.jaerdaph said:
And while the Manhattan Project may be a good example of humans throwing massive resources to accomplish something with "brute force and ignorance" we at least had a reason why - to try and beat the Germans at it. (Remember, Einstein was one of the scientist who petitioned the US gov't to begin the project because they were afraid Hitler was on that road.)
There is really no reason why they'd come all this way, if it first weren't made into an affordable technology to begin with. They would have mastered the technology to colonise their own neighbourhood, or to exploit the resources of their own solar system before ever coming all the way over here to perform medial experiment. I fall back on Occam's Razor: it just doesn't make sense.
Greg
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GregH - Well, the thing about aliens is, they are alien. 
In light of what you mention, perhaps I should rethink what I've said. Sohphisticated tech is one way to make the thing seem what we, right now, would call "affordable". Several other things might, and any of them might apply to another species on another planet.
1)Economy - what counts as "affordable" depends on how much wealth you have. If, for example, you have a species that doesn't need sleep, so for similar populations they can produce much more wealth than we can, the thing might seem affordable. Or, maybe the advent of fusion power lends enough oomph to the economy to make this project reasonable.
2)Danger - even if you can colonize other worlds in your solar system, doesn't mean those colonies are necessarily ultimately independent from their home biosphere. If that home has been endangered (by pollution, by natural disaster, by war, etc), perhaps the idea of flinging yourself to the stars makes sense.
3)Psychology - really, they do think in alien ways, so that they have higher priority for such a project than we can imagine for ourselves now.
I note you disallow this last, and then turn around and say that "it doesn't make sense". "Sense" is subjective. Of course,if you assume they are working with your personal sensibilities, it won't make sense. But how likely is that? How many ways could they differ from your sensibilities?
In light of what you mention, perhaps I should rethink what I've said. Sohphisticated tech is one way to make the thing seem what we, right now, would call "affordable". Several other things might, and any of them might apply to another species on another planet.
1)Economy - what counts as "affordable" depends on how much wealth you have. If, for example, you have a species that doesn't need sleep, so for similar populations they can produce much more wealth than we can, the thing might seem affordable. Or, maybe the advent of fusion power lends enough oomph to the economy to make this project reasonable.
2)Danger - even if you can colonize other worlds in your solar system, doesn't mean those colonies are necessarily ultimately independent from their home biosphere. If that home has been endangered (by pollution, by natural disaster, by war, etc), perhaps the idea of flinging yourself to the stars makes sense.
3)Psychology - really, they do think in alien ways, so that they have higher priority for such a project than we can imagine for ourselves now.
I note you disallow this last, and then turn around and say that "it doesn't make sense". "Sense" is subjective. Of course,if you assume they are working with your personal sensibilities, it won't make sense. But how likely is that? How many ways could they differ from your sensibilities?
Umbran said:GregH - Well, the thing about aliens is, they are alien.
Of course, your right. But there are probably a few truths in the universe. Survival instinct being one of them. They would need to flourish as individuals and as a species. In order for an alien species to become as advanced as would be necessary to visit us, out here on this lonely arm of the Milky Way, they would have to become the evolutionary pinnacle of their world.
So they must, by definition, share that with us. They need to survive.
So if they have that same initial motivation, as us, then they must at least share some similar outlooks as us. And why not? Are we really that unique, that our motives are so horrible/noble (depending on whom you talk to) that they would not be shared by an alien species?
I would agree that they may think differently than us. But I doubt that their motivations would be all that much different.
Umbran said:
True, "sense" is, indeed, relative. But my problem is, when confronted with the question of "why?" most UFOlogist say "we can't know - they are too alien". And I just don't accept that. There has to be a reason (and I do believe they must use "reason") but I just wish someone could give me a good one.
Why us? Why here? Why now? Why hide? Why? And, more importantly, how?
When I get good answers to those questions (and not just speculation, I can speculate) then maybe I'll start believing. Until then, I'm firmly in the "show me, don't tell me" camp.
Greg
GregH said:
Um, that argues against your current position, you know. There are those among us that believe that doing precisely the same thing is what we should do - that we should hit the starways. Clearly, this is not inconsistent with our own motivations. So, why should we think they wouldn't feel the same way, perhaps even more strongly?
An honest scientist will tell you that we cannot know. Not because they are "too alien", but simply because we have too little evidence. Anyone who claims to "know" either has information not available to the bulk of the human race, or is lying.
No honest scientist really asks for you to believe it is true without some form of real evidence. We ask you to believe it is possible. Big difference, that.
jaerdaph said:Defeating Nazi tyranny vs. travelling half way across the galaxy to perform random anal probes...
Yeah, you're probably right.
Facetious, but containing a point that clouds the issue.
The goal for the Manhattan Project was to produce a weapon that would end the war before the Axis did, yes. But the goal of traveling across the galaxy is (I submit) unlikely to be anal probes. Thus, while funny, this is quite a false comparison.
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