From high magic campaign to low magic

[Stormborn]

I don't think this is entirely what he was thinking about. Or at least that's my perspective.

Me either. The OP is talking about the same world, where one day it is high magic and the next day its not, or something like that.

My suggestions:

1) Do incorporate Stunts in the game.
2) Create Feats that can be taken that can replicate some of the effects of magic items, in terms of game math not flavor. For example: Create a fighter feat that allows him to increase the damage by he does against a creature by +1d4(or d6 or whatever) each round he hits the same target. Yes its overpowered if he has a magic sword thats adding fire damage to every succesful hit, but if he is just going at it with a MW sword then the extra damage willbe needed to take down a high DR creature. Thats just off the top of my head, but you could take the feats or class features found in Iron Heros and turn them into DnD feats to do this. Rationalize it as ancient fighting techniques that have been rediscovered now that they are needed again.
3) As other posters ahve suggested, increase the utility of MW items. Keen, for example, can easily be explained as a MW quality.
4) If you want to throw something radical in pick up Magic of Incarnum and say that this type of energy was always there, but was supressed by the level of magic in the world.
5) Create new types of magic items that are fueled by soemthing strange and rare: dragon bones, gods' blood, crystalized elementals, etc. Someone figures out these things still work, for whatever reason, and now their is a drive to find it. New campaign hooks as needed.

 

[DonTadow]

Me either. The OP is talking about the same world, where one day it is high magic and the next day its not, or something like that.

My suggestions:

1) Do incorporate Stunts in the game.
2) Create Feats that can be taken that can replicate some of the effects of magic items, in terms of game math not flavor. For example: Create a fighter feat that allows him to increase the damage by he does against a creature by +1d4(or d6 or whatever) each round he hits the same target. Yes its overpowered if he has a magic sword thats adding fire damage to every succesful hit, but if he is just going at it with a MW sword then the extra damage willbe needed to take down a high DR creature. Thats just off the top of my head, but you could take the feats or class features found in Iron Heros and turn them into DnD feats to do this. Rationalize it as ancient fighting techniques that have been rediscovered now that they are needed again.
3) As other posters ahve suggested, increase the utility of MW items. Keen, for example, can easily be explained as a MW quality.
4) If you want to throw something radical in pick up Magic of Incarnum and say that this type of energy was always there, but was supressed by the level of magic in the world.
5) Create new types of magic items that are fueled by soemthing strange and rare: dragon bones, gods' blood, crystalized elementals, etc. Someone figures out these things still work, for whatever reason, and now their is a drive to find it. New campaign hooks as needed.

I like all the suggestions so far. I'll be picking up a hardcover copy of Iron Heroes (only got the drivethrurpg version) and a magic of Incarnum. I got some questions though.

Do stunts mesh with the 3.5 player classes and races?

I'm still looking for rules on trainers. I'd love to figure out a way where pcs bought feat like abilities from these special trainers for a price, xp and time.

What exactly is this new stuff in INcarnum? is it magic? Is it closer to psionics? There's a whole continent already created in the world that hte pcs havn't encountered that I designed to be psionic. How does this new magic interact with psionics or is this thourhougly explained in the book.


In a 100 to 200 years of evolution like this, I could use a lot of Emirikol's suggestions, but since it has only been a year, it would be hard to explain the sudden drastic change. Though

However, I do find it funny that I already use both your Number 1, Number 2 and Number 3 in the world before the magic was gone. Only the upperclass had access to magic and the lower races lived in scums and ghettos. But that had more to do with a corupt church running the arcane and divine magic show.

As far as your rules, emirkol I do see myself implmenting 3, 5 and 8 but as said the world already exists as it is and I want to make sure that there's a logical transition as opposed to down right change of philosphy. Still I appreciate the thoroughness.

 

[Henry]

Another idea is to borrow the Mastercraft system from the Black Company Campaign Setting. Each weapon has a level of quality, and that level of quality allows a certain number of characteristics. One quality raises the damage by +1; another raises the attack by +1; another gives a bonus to a skill (such as intimidation) through wicked barbs, blood grooves, etc.; another gives a bonus to confirm a crit, through being extra sharp; one confers a lesser weight, or armor check penalty, etc.

It's a pretty good system in a world where magic items are rarer and far between.

As another suggestion, does your MacGuffin HAVE to de-magic the world? Or is it too late to retcon the device's effect, or you refuse to retcon it for reasons of principle?

 

[Thanee]

They could all take Vow of Poverty then.

“It was a sign of the gods...”

Bye
Thanee

 

[DonTadow]

Another idea is to borrow the Mastercraft system from the Black Company Campaign Setting. Each weapon has a level of quality, and that level of quality allows a certain number of characteristics. One quality raises the damage by +1; another raises the attack by +1; another gives a bonus to a skill (such as intimidation) through wicked barbs, blood grooves, etc.; another gives a bonus to confirm a crit, through being extra sharp; one confers a lesser weight, or armor check penalty, etc.

It's a pretty good system in a world where magic items are rarer and far between.

As another suggestion, does your MacGuffin HAVE to de-magic the world? Or is it too late to retcon the device's effect, or you refuse to retcon it for reasons of principle?

I"m glad you brought that up. I've retconed a lot of stuff in the campaign, but I've opted not to do this for several reasons.

A. The pcs actually discussed this theory as a ramification, meaning that they know that it is possible. The discussion of the theory caugth me by surprise (yeah I underestimated that they would deduce that this thing could do something this powerful).

B. One of the PCs begged the party not to kill the guy before they could probe his mind for some information.

C. I've already provided three documents detailing the machine, one of which states that the history of the device and how it was used to take the powers away from a god, then linked and sealed to a sarcophagus. I'd have to play on the effects I've already described, so to a point its too late to retcon the device entirely.

However, I am toying around in my head of only half of the world non-magical with the other half magical. But the problem I am seeing is figuring out how a world where half of it was magical and the other half wasn't magical would evolve in a year. All suggestions welcome for this as well. Slavery already exists in the world, is the other side treated as the really really really ugly stepchildren.

 

[Altalazar]

my players would whine... alot...!

which is why I'm seriously considering borrowing this idea...



however in terms of handling ramifications, maybe consider a diminishing of DR to compensate...

alternatively, just leave everything as is and educate the PCs by giving them a tough fight against something that would previously have been a walk-over... something with DR 10/magic would be a good place to start...

See, that's just cheesy. Anything that would destroy all permanent magic would have to affect those creatures as well - either they are all dead or they lose all of their permanent magical abilities. You can't have it both ways.

 

[DonTadow]

See, that's just cheesy. Anything that would destroy all permanent magic would have to affect those creatures as well - either they are all dead or they lose all of their permanent magical abilities. You can't have it both ways.

I agree, but I think Ruaval was speaking in a metagame campaign world overall. There are no "monsters" native to the world of Chrystaria. However, there are temperal portals to demiplanes that do posess creatures that would still have damage reduction. Reducing damage reduction definatly sounds fair.

However, man made portals would be destroyed come to think of it, only leaving behind the portals that were created by demonlords (whom in my campaign were more powerful than the gods).

 

[luke_twigger]

If it was possible to have a "disenchant device" with such a powerful effect then presumably it's equally possible for something else to counteract or reverse it? Sounds like the potential for another epic adventure to send the PCs on in the future, to undo their previous meddling...

 

[rom90125]

What about this possibility:

Once the PC's disenchant all magic in the world, use a cut scene to decribe the initial effects. Then progress to the longer lasting effects (nations collapse, large areas fall into chaos and anarchy before the 'new' world emerges...a darker, more gritty world). Then inform the PCs that the campaign will continue with a new ruleset (Iron Heroes or another low-magic setting). This gives the players a chance to decide if they want to keep their current PCs and mod them based on the new rules of the world, or start a new PC who was born into the low magic world and knows nothing else. By allowing the PCs to make the decision regarding which character type to continue with empowers them and hopefully they won't feel railroaded when the focus of the campaign shifts from high magic to low magic.

Oddly enough, my campaign could go this route as well. If the PC's fail to stop the BBEG, then the long-lasting results will be the partial destruction of the magic in the world. I've purchased Iron Heroes and the supplements to aid me in the possible transition to a low magic world (set several 1000 years in the 'future' of the current campaign to allow for the drastic changes in the world and the eventual 'discovery' of hidden high magic), and I have been extremely impressed with IH thus far. But further praise is best saved for another thread, so as not to hijack this one.

That is my 2 cents, easily tossed aside if so desired

 

[Nyeshet]

How exactly does the device work? Does it basically create an MD several thousand miles in radius as a burst effect? The dieties may have something to say about that, considering that there are almost certainly more than 20 artifacts within that radius. Anyway, it does not prevent the creation of new magic items, and such are probably already being created. Likely, the wealthiest institutions (ie: empires, massive kingdoms, etc) have likely already hired most of the highest level mages to replace items lost due to the effect.

If the artifact's effect is lingering (which your posts seem to suggest), then howso? If magic items truly cannot last more than a few days (perhaps 1d4 per CL in days?) then the highest mages are not only hired (thus unavailable to others), but they are also being abducted, blackmailed (with the lives of f&f), etc. Some are likely striking back. How is this affecting the arcane / divine division? Do divine magic items last longer (perhaps +Dvn Rnk of the deity to the count above)? If so then clerics have a little more influence than before. If not, then they are in the same situation as the arcane casters. Wars are occationally being waged over towns and cities where major temples / mage colleges happen to exist.

Does magic - typical spells - work as normal? If so then spells such as GMW are more important than before. If not then it is possible that crop yields (likely long influenced by Clerics with the Plant domain, local Druids, etc) are now at an all time low. The Roman empire and many others have fallen due to such over the course of a mere few years. It is possible that half the kingdoms the PCs knew are no more - collapsed into anarchy due to starvation riots. The remaining ones are diminished and more authoritarian - to better deal with the situation, of course.

The prior posts about creatures with DR is significant, but if magic itself (even day to day spells) is diminished, then their magical abilities should also be diminished. Decrease DR / magic or alignment by 5 points to represent this. Note that due to using the 3.5e (rather than 3e) system this is not as much trouble. Cold Iron and Silver are still available, still working normally. Aligned weapons are moot, but basic lower level spells can temporarily deal with that issue. DR / magic is a concern, granted, but if the DR is 5 points lower than it is not as big of an issue. Creatures with only DR 5 / magic no longer have DR, and those with DR 5 / silver and magic now only have DR 5 / silver - a much more readily overcome ability. SR should also be lowered a little (perhaps 2-4 points, across the board). This would remove the SR of Dwarves, I note.

As magic is diminished, force of arms becomes more important. City walls are higher, armed men more numerous - albeit (at first) poorly armed. Casters are viewed with more envy - resulting in a surge of apprenticeships (sponcered by those highest in power / rank), but casters overall are viewed with more apprehension and anger. "Surely whatever caused the Cataclysm was magical in origin!" is likely a common view, and those that wield powers - powers now viewed as less stable, less dependable, less useful, less understandable - are now likely viewed in a less positive light.

Perhaps some regions of the world were actually under protective magics from minor artifacts - items that now are powerless. Suddenly regions along deserts are slowly dissicating as the deserts expand into them. Suddenly regions along the shore that have never known a storm are often beset by such. Perhaps, in times past, several djin or fiends were captured and contained / imprisoned. Now they are free to wander as they will. Dragons, long a dangerous consideration, are now vastly more powerful due to the lack of readily available magical weapons. If the PCs take more than a couple years to emerge, it may be to a world utterly changed - kingdoms fallen, new ones risen by force of arms, dragons now openly and commonly besetting many lands, weather gone wild, deserts / wild woods / swamps having spread into / over towns, counties, etc.

Given a few decades, the problems will be (partially) undone, as the number of magical weapons and items will be (partially) restored. But it will likely be a century or more before the lands are truly once again stabilizied. And the problems that resulted from the destruction of unknown artifacts remain - storms, spreading wastelands (deserts, swamps, etc), wandering beasts of greater than normal power, etc. Note that this 'decades' bit presumes the effect of the major artifact fades with item, eventually allowing for the creation of permanent magical items once again. If it does not, then the PCs have irrevocably changed the world for millennia to come.