From the WotC Boards: Mearls on 'Aggro'

Celebrim said:
IIf you think them trying something that you don't want them to do is reassuring, you come down on one side of the debate.
But we don't know what they actually tried to do. No details have been provided, other than the fact that they did not use a system like WoW's. How do you know you don't want them do something if you don't know precisely what they tried to do?

One side is speculating ("what they were trying was doomed to fail"), because we don't know what they tried. The other is not ("it's a good thing they're trying out new ideas, and judging them critically").
 

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Celebrim said:
I don't think there is any speculation going on, or to the extent that there is, both sides have the same basic assumptions. The argument basically comes down to:

"I'm glad they tried it and then didn't do it."

vs.

"I wish they didn't try it at all."

If you think them trying something that you don't want them to do is reassuring, you come down on one side of the debate. If you think them trying something that you don't want them to do is not reassuring, you come down on the other. But basically everyone agrees that the unseen mechanics were bad, if only because the designers said so. No one is speculating particularly over what those mechanics were.

I don't know. It seems like which side you fall down on (and I think either side is fine in the end) is influenced by your impression of how the mechanics were implemented (to use Rodney's term). If you think they ported WoW directly into D&D you are more likely to be 'not reassured' than if you think they just used some mechanic to encourage creatures to attack certain types of characters. At least I think so, given that the first (direct port) is probably more obviously not workable whereas the second (using the concept with more flexible mechanics) could potentially work out.

I mean, I don't like the idea much either way, but I'm not too upset they messed around with it in a thoughtful manner (if you take Rodney at his word).

Just my thoughts on the matter.

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Fifth Element said:
But we don't know what they actually tried to do.

What they tried is irrelevant. We know that they didn't adopt it, and everyone assumes that they did so because what they tried didn't work. No one (at least no one making themselves particularly visible) is speculating that they should have used different mechanics and then it might have been a good idea.

And no one that I know of is suggesting that they would rather that the game have some formal pervasive aggro mechanic as part of core game play, and everyone is pretty much against them doing it. It's just some of the people that are against such a game system would rather they didn't even bother testing one, and some people think that they should have.

Neither side knows or particularly cares what it is exactly that they tried to do. It is enough to know that it limited DM (and player) freedom of action, presumably by forcing monsters or PC's to favor attacking certain opponents over other ones or else it wouldn't have been compared to 'aggro'. I could speculate about what that mechanic looked like, but it really doesn't matter.
 

Let's go ahead and quote Rodney here:
There's a discussion on ENWorld right now where some fans are basically saying, "We don't like the concept of X mechanic, and we're upset that Wizards even tried it, even though they discarded it." I think that's just senseless, and if you're one of those folks then I'm sorry but I think you're wrong. There is no reason not to try out a certain type of game mechanic if there is even a hint that it might benefit the game. Shutting yourself off to ideas, even ones that on the surface seem incompatible with what you're trying to accomplish, is both arrogant and closed-minded. The argument is "Clearly this is a bad mechanic for D&D, so Wizards is obviously screwing things up by even considering it" when it's certainly not clear by any definition of the word. There is no reason not to experiment with a certain type of mechanic, provided that you keep a clear vision of what you want the mechanic to do, what its repercussions will be on your game, and that you are willing to discard it if it proves to be a bad idea.

I think the real issue in that debate is that some people are letting themselves be blinded by specific mechanics instead of looking at larger issues. Basically, there are mechanical concepts and mechanical implementations. Mechanical concepts should absolutely be looked at across genres, I think. For example, one of the mechanical concepts popular in the Euro games that I like is that no one "dies" or "fails out" of the game, and everyone plays until the end. Look at Catan, Carcassone, etc. for examples. This is a concept that's already in D&D, though people might argue it's not. The key is not the concept, but the implementation. D&D currently implements this concept by making resurrection both possible and (in the grand scheme of things) relatively easy. Paranoia accomplishes it by giving you clones. D&D and other games ALSO accomplish it by allowing you to roll up a new character and join in.

I just don't think there's any reason to jump on the D&D designers for looking into alternative mechanics. I also think people are jumping to conclusions; just because someone says "We looked into an aggro mechanic" doesn't mean "we tried to use WoW's aggro mechanic." It just means "we looked into a method of encouraging a unit to attack a defender character" which is not the same thing. It's the whole mechanical concepts vs. mechanical implementation, and I think good game design comes from being open to the former (even if you ultimately reject it) and being able to create the latter in such a way that it fits your game.
 


lkj said:
I don't know. It seems like which side you fall down on (and I think either side is fine in the end) is influenced by your impression of how the mechanics were implemented (to use Rodney's term). If you think they ported WoW directly into D&D you are more likely to be 'not reassured' than if you think they just used some mechanic to encourage creatures to attack certain types of characters.

No, that's not it at all. It's not a specific implementation of the idea that I think is bad. I could care less if the mechanic was 'video gamey' or reminiscent of WoW. Not everything similar to a video game is bad. For example, to me feats always seem inspired by Fallout, right down to the 1/3 levels. It's the whole approach of narrowly defining for DMs how monsters should behave which was under consideration that I don't like.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
By "everyone," I presume you mean "me and people who appear to agree with me," rather than the standard definition of the word.

You presume wrong.

By 'everyone' I mean, 'Everyone involved in this conversation.'

Presumably there may be some people out there that speculate that the mechanics in question were just what D&D needs and that wish that they had kept whatever 'aggro' mechanics that they ultimately dropped, but if there are, they aren't doing a very good job of making themselves heard. If I've overlooked them, I apologize.

However, even the ones that don't agree with me and who are extremely happy that the mechanics were tried ultimately also seem to agree that its a good thing that they were dropped.
 

Celebrim said:
No, that's not it at all. It's not a specific implementation of the idea that I think is bad. I could care less if the mechanic was 'video gamey' or reminiscent of WoW. Not everything similar to a video game is bad. For example, to me feats always seem inspired by Fallout, right down to the 1/3 levels. It's the whole approach of narrowly defining for DMs how monsters should behave which was under consideration that I don't like.

That's totally fine. I don't have any problem with you thinking that you would never want a mechanic that forces DM's to make their monsters behave in a certain way. And you would prefer if they never tried such a mechanic. And it worries you that they did. All good.

I guess that from reading over the thread, not your posts in particular, I get the impression that some people think they were fools for experimenting with it (Why would they try anything so obviously doomed to failure?). I think that the details of how they tried it therefore will definitely affect whether you think it was a horrific idea or not.

Basically, I'm not sure that how you framed the argument is an entirely accurate description of the whole argument here. It's certainly true for you, as you state it that way.

But just hypothetically-- If they were trying a mechanic that forced all monsters to take rigorously defined actions under every circumstance, I'd be more uncomfortable with their judgment than if they made it so that stupid monsters will attack the big brute with the sword 60% of the time because stupid monsters understand a threat from a sword better than from magic.

So, I'm thinking that there is a gradient here. If you are against any mechanical suggestions for how monsters act, then, yah, you won't like that they tried it. But you might not be carrying such a hard line. You might be more willing to have some more mechanically defined guidelines for some creatures that the players can then use to strategize. Not me, but it doesn't seem like an inherently bad idea. Therefore, I think it's fine that they played around with it and it doesn't worry me. I suspect if they told me that they had experimented with a mechanic which was just like WoW I'd be more concerned. And maybe some others in the 'they shouldn't have tried it' camp will be less concerned when they hear that WotC didn't try a direct port.

Anyway, not really interested in a lengthy argument. Just trying to point out that the debate might not be framed quite as clearly for everyone else as it is for you.

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Celebrim said:
And no one that I know of is suggesting that they would rather that the game have some formal pervasive aggro mechanic as part of core game play, and everyone is pretty much against them doing it. It's just some of the people that are against such a game system would rather they didn't even bother testing one, and some people think that they should have.
No, the argument is not "it's good that they tested an aggro mechanic", it's "it's good that they're testing new ideas, regardless of where the idea comes from". Aggro is a new idea, and therefore testing it is fine. Just like other new ideas.

It's good that they are not rejecting ideas out-of-hand because they're inspired by a video game. This idea failed, but other may succeed.

And again, how can you be against a game system of which you have no details? That's pure speculation. D&D already has mechanics that affect how other creatures behave, so it can't be inherently wrong, can it?
 


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