Frustrated on Feats

[Edena_of_Neith]

Understood.

I could imagine a ranger school (or conclave, or sorority, or a wise ranger mentor, or even a Faerie mentor) that emphasizes some fighting along with the core ranger training (thus - maybe - producing a high level ranger / low level fighter. It's still unlikely, since rangers have their own style of fighting.)

However, I cannot visualize a fighter school that also teaches rangerhood.
Ranger training is just too exclusive, whereas fighters can be trained in many places, in many ways.

I feel that if a player wishes to multiclass, some creative thinking on the character's background is called for.

I do NOT subscribe to the idea one can learn to be a wizard by studying the wizard's (in the party) spellbook during the course of a short adventure, and presto! we have a new wizard.
If a character starts as a rogue, then changes to another class, was he a gutter rat for a while, eeking out survival in a big city? Was he a lone raider in the wild? Was he trained by a school of arms that emphasized stealth? Why does he have the level in rogue?
If a character starts as a fighter, then changes to another class, then how did he attain the one level as fighter? Who trained him? Why did they train him? Did the Druidical College believe all applicants needed martial training? (LOL. They do not even wear metal armor.) However, among elves fighter/mage training is quite common.

Someone has mentioned that a Wish will grant Feats, in his campaign.

If I were playing a character, I'd pay the enormous sum of money required to have a high level NPC wizard throw a Wish on me, to gain an extra Feat.
I would consider the money well spent.
Unfortunately, I am betting every other rich adventurer will also consider the money well spent.

Spending experience to gain Feats is an idea I would go for, and I mean I'd really go for it, in spades!
1,000 experience points for a supposedly minor Feat? You bet. Minor Feats have this way of adding up to big results.
10,000 experience points for a major Feat? Yes.

Sure, I want to get to high level.
But that is the point - I WANT to get to high level ... alive.
The more Feats I have, the better the chance I will do just that.

I have no problem with taking it slow and easy, gaining levels (even if my party is outracing me badly) if I can empower my character with added Feats.

Now, as far as I know, WOTC has not ruled on the effect of Wish spells (whether they can grant Feats or not.)

The experience points for Feats is - obviously - a Home Rule.
Were that I was so lucky I had a DM that allowed this kind of thing!

Ah me, I guess the real secret is in the Prestige Classes.
You make your choices and take your Feats, then augment your strength with a Prestige Class.

I guess that's the way to go.

 

[Squire James]

I CAN visualize a "fighter school" that teaches the rudiments of "being a ranger" without going into too much detail. Not some academy in the city, to be sure, but how about some mostly-rural organization that emphasizes archery? This is how I envision the Order of the Bow to be like ("learn the ways of the forest, then come back to me for instruction regarding the ways of the bow"). Surely it isn't there PURELY to provide archers to be a chance to be munchkins too?

 

[TiQuinn]

Sure, I want to get to high level.
But that is the point - I WANT to get to high level ... alive.
The more Feats I have, the better the chance I will do just that.

I have no problem with taking it slow and easy, gaining levels (even if my party is outracing me badly) if I can empower my character with added Feats.

I get the impression that your DM is pretty rough. I don't think a character's choice of feats should impact his chances of survival so much that you have to min/max your character or adopt house rules just to have a way to gain extra feats. I can see where poor selection of feats would make it tougher for a character, but this sounds extreme. I sense an issue here.

Also, why is the rest of the party outracing you? Have you died that often, and if so, why? If that's the case, maybe you need to talk to your DM about why your character keeps getting killed.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I can envision a school of fighters that teaches rangerhood. Say, a military encampment on the edge of a forest, or a host of people conscripted to defend a druid's grove.

Thankfully, 3e is all about options, so that you don't have to fit your wilderness warrior into the template of the Ranger...say you want no spellcasting...well, take a few levels in Ranger, and then go the rest in Fighter. Maybe take a few feats that help you retain access to some Ranger skills.

To be on-topic, yeah...concept eliminates a lot of feats. Think about things you want your character to be able to do, then think about if there's a feat or class you can take that'll give your character that capability.

The WotC feats are well categorized by class in the class books, and you can find most of 'em in the chapters of other books. It's just a matter of process of elimination, and then seeing which of those that remain are the best for your character concept. Levelling takes a while anyway...which is why I usually reserve it for the end of a session...choosing a feat is just another cool feature.

At leat IMC, the feat choice doesn't make or break the character. It could just give them a neat-o ability.

 

[Umbran]

Thus, it boils down to an agonizing deliberation, everytime the character attains a level allowing a new Feat, over what Feat to take.

I think this is entirely intentional. If it weren't this way, everyone would end up playing pretty much the same thing. All the fighters would have pretty much the same abilities, and that'd hardly be different from previous editions. With so many feats, such that nobody can have everything useful one, you get unique characters.

Character advancement is about choices. You're supposed to think long and hard about what you're going to do. Revel in it, I say!

 

[Creamsteak]

Hey Edena, I know this is your second thread in two days about feats. I worked out a more specific feat progression that I honestly think is your best bet for being a Fighter/Mage. You end up with 11 levels in fighter (enough to get 3 attacks per turn) and as many levels in Wizard as you can gain. Just look it over, and if you don't get something ask. I tried to make the beginning rather tight, but as it gets to the end I just started to list options.

Fighter 1/Wizard 1
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword or other)
Improved Initiative
Scribe Scroll
Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword or other)

Fighter 2/Wizard 1
Dodge or Expertise
Spell Focus (Evocation or Transmutation)

Fighter 4/Wizard 1
Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword or other)

Fighter 4/Wizard 2
Greater Spell Focus (Evocation or Transmutation) or Spell Focus (Evocation or Transmutation)

Fighter 4/Wizard 5
Combat Reflexes or Lightning Reflexes
Item Creation Feat (Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wand, or Craft Wondrous Item), Meta-magic Feat (Eschew Materials, Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell), or Spell Mastery

Fighter 6/Wizard 5
Improved Critical (Bastard Sword or other)

Fighter 6/Wizard 6
Combat Casting or Spell Penetration

Fighter 8/Wizard 6
Mobility or Superior Expertise

Fighter 8/Wizard 7
Improved Counter-spell or Spell Focus (Greater Spell Focus)

Fighter 10/Wizard 7
Power Critical (Bastard Sword or Other)

Fighter 11/Wizard 7
Improved Counter-spell or Spell Penetration (Greater Spell Penetration)

Fighter 11/Wizard 10
Item Creation Feat (Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item) Meta-Magic Feat (Eschew Materials, Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell), or Spell Mastery
Epic Spell Penetration, Epic Weapon Focus, or Superior Initiative

Fighter 11/Wizard 13
Epic Spell Penetration, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, or Superior Initiative

Fighter 11/Wizard 15
Item Creation Feat (Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, or Forge Ring), Meta-Magic Feat (Eschew Materials, Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell), or Spell Mastery

Fighter 11/Wizard 16
Epic Spell Penetration, Epic Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword or other), Epic Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword or Other), or Superior Initiative
Fighter 11/Wizard 19
Epic Spell-casting, Epic Spell Focus (Evocation or Transmutation), or Improved Spell Capacity

Fighter 11/Wizard 20
Item Creation Feat (Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, or Forge Ring), Meta-Magic Feat (Eschew Materials, Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell), or Spell Mastery

Fighter 11/Wizard 22
Any of the Following: Additional Magic Item Space, Armor Skin, Augmented Alchemy, Automatic Silent Spell, Blinding Speed, Damage Reduction, Efficient Item Creation, Energy Resistance, Enhance Spell, Epic Fortitude, Epic Prowess, Epic Reflexes, Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus, Epic Spell Focus, Epic Spell Penetration, Epic Spell- casting, Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Epic Will, Extended Life Span, Fast Healing, Great Charisma, Great Constitution, Great Dexterity, Great Intelligence, Great Strength, Great Wisdom, Ignore Material Components, Improved Combat Casting, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Heighten Spell, Improved Meta-magic, Improved Spell Capacity, Intensify Spell, Master Staff, Master Wand, Multi- Spell, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Permanent Emanation, Scribe Epic Scroll, Spell Knowledge, Spell Opportunity, Spell Stowaway, Spell-casting harrier, Spontaneous Spell, Superior Initiative, Tenacious Magic.

Fighter 11/Wizard 23
All of the Above Plus: Craft Epic Wondrous Item

Fighter 11/Wizard 25
All of the Above Plus: Automatic Still Spell, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor.

Fighter 11/Wizard 26
Any the above will work.

Fighter 11/Wizard 28
Any of the Above Plus: Automatic Quicken Spell.

Fighter 11/Wizard 29
Any of the Above Plus: Craft Epic Rod.

Fighter 11/Wizard 31
Any of the above will work.

Fighter 11/Wizard 32
Any of the Above Plus: Craft Epic Staff, Forge Epic Ring.

Fighter 11/Wizard 34

Fighter 11/Wizard 35

Fighter 11/Wizard 37

Fighter 11/Wizard 38

Fighter 11/Wizard 40

Fighter 11/Wizard 41

Fighter 11/Wizard 43

Fighter 11/Wizard 44

 

[William Ronald]

I would like to say that a character who wants to multi class have some good in character reason for doing so and take a little game time (perhaps a few months to a year -- different people learn at different rates.)

As for feats, I always ask what is the player's vision for a character. Character concept is crucial for such decisions as choosing feats, whether or not to multi class, or to take a prestige class.

I believe Ryan Dancey once said that 3rd Edition was about choices and consequences. In real life, no one person can do it all. So, I would choose my feats wisely. I would even seek the input of other players who might have a good feel of my character as well. (For a new character, this could be very helpful as talking to someone can help define a character concept.)

For example, Edena of Neith (the character) began life as a priest of Odin. (Correct me if I am wrong.) Perhaps feats that would enhance spell casting and battle prowess would be appropriate.
Feats such as cleave might make little sense for a character as opposed to Spell Focus and Heighten Spell. As the priests of Odin are supposed to be a hardy lot, maybe feats such as great fortitude and weapon focus (spear) might be appropriate.