Full attack and Improved Grapple
- Thread starter Liminal Syzygy
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FrankTrollman
First Post
Apparently, you are correct - at least partially:
That's the monster manual. Apparently, you can only make one natural weapon attack. It's the [rimary source - so I guess that's how it works. Not what I would have expected - but monsters are kind of boned in grapples.
-Frank
Snipehunt
First Post
Oh. Well, I never thought to look for the basic rules on monster grappling in the glossary of the monster manual, under "Rake."
Which leaves the question. Assuming this is correct, does the rake entry mean that the monster gets only a single attack w/ it's natural weapon, or do the grapple rules supercede the "Natural Weapon" rules and let the monster get iterative attacks? The basic grapple rule allows iterative grapple checks based on BAB, which allows a monster w/, say, a BAB of 12 to get 3 grapple checks. The "attack" option lets a monster deal it's primary natural weapon damage w/ a successful check. Something to think about.
Which leaves the question. Assuming this is correct, does the rake entry mean that the monster gets only a single attack w/ it's natural weapon, or do the grapple rules supercede the "Natural Weapon" rules and let the monster get iterative attacks? The basic grapple rule allows iterative grapple checks based on BAB, which allows a monster w/, say, a BAB of 12 to get 3 grapple checks. The "attack" option lets a monster deal it's primary natural weapon damage w/ a successful check. Something to think about.
Brekki
First Post
1> You can attack with each of your natural weapons, at a -4 penalty.
"You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons" (PH 156).
2> You get to make one grapple check per BAB granted attack.
agreed
3> These grapple checks can be made to pin or cause unarmed damage.
Yes ... and some other options.
4> These grapple checks are in addition to the natural weapon attacks.
where do you get this idea ? ... just because some actions don't implicitly say they are a standard action or an attack action, doesn't mean you can do all of them as a free action, they just stay the same kind of action they are outside a grapple
5> The implication in the rules that you can replace the grapple checks with additional natural weapon attacks or spellcasting is erroneous.
you can choose between several things:
- full round ... like getting spell components
- standard action ... like activating/casting/escape check/move
- move action ... like drawing a weapon
- use attacks from bab for grapple checks (to damage/pin/break pin/use others weapon) or normal attacks with ONE light/natural weapon
You can do a standard and a move, or a single attack/grapple check and a move, but not just stack all the actions together.
[edit] didn't see the second page of the conversation till after I replied
"You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons" (PH 156).
2> You get to make one grapple check per BAB granted attack.
agreed
3> These grapple checks can be made to pin or cause unarmed damage.
Yes ... and some other options.
4> These grapple checks are in addition to the natural weapon attacks.
where do you get this idea ? ... just because some actions don't implicitly say they are a standard action or an attack action, doesn't mean you can do all of them as a free action, they just stay the same kind of action they are outside a grapple
5> The implication in the rules that you can replace the grapple checks with additional natural weapon attacks or spellcasting is erroneous.
you can choose between several things:
- full round ... like getting spell components
- standard action ... like activating/casting/escape check/move
- move action ... like drawing a weapon
- use attacks from bab for grapple checks (to damage/pin/break pin/use others weapon) or normal attacks with ONE light/natural weapon
You can do a standard and a move, or a single attack/grapple check and a move, but not just stack all the actions together.
[edit] didn't see the second page of the conversation till after I replied
Last edited:
FrankTrollman
First Post
Since you can't use a natural weapon more than once per round, and you apparently can't use more than one natural weapon while grappling (barring Rake or Constrict) - it appears that a Dire Bear can only attack with one natural wepaon while grappling each round.
He still gets BAB modified grapple checks after that - but they can't be used to inflict natural weapon damage (only for unarmed damage or pinning). BTW, I was also surprised to find the rules for grappling under the Rake ability.
That being said, it appears that having one party member grapple a Hydra or other creature with multiple attacks is a huge benefit to the party as a whole - even if the creature is winning the grapple the amount of damage it can hand out with be hugely retarded - and your cleric can probably keep up while your friends kick its butt.
That seems wrong to me - but that appears to be what it says.
-Frank
He still gets BAB modified grapple checks after that - but they can't be used to inflict natural weapon damage (only for unarmed damage or pinning). BTW, I was also surprised to find the rules for grappling under the Rake ability.
That being said, it appears that having one party member grapple a Hydra or other creature with multiple attacks is a huge benefit to the party as a whole - even if the creature is winning the grapple the amount of damage it can hand out with be hugely retarded - and your cleric can probably keep up while your friends kick its butt.
That seems wrong to me - but that appears to be what it says.
-Frank
The Souljourner
First Post
I think "hugely retarded" is an accurate description of that result of the interpretation of the rules 
Note, this is not an insult aimed at you, Frank, rather an insult aimed at what the rules seem to be saying.
I think the intent was for monsters to only be able to use a single natural weapon in a grapple, but to be able to use it to replace each of the iterative grapple checks.
However, I don't think grappling a hydra would work. It wins the initial grapple check, so you never actually get a hold on it, so it never is restricted to doing grapple checks for damage.
-The Souljourner
Note, this is not an insult aimed at you, Frank, rather an insult aimed at what the rules seem to be saying.I think the intent was for monsters to only be able to use a single natural weapon in a grapple, but to be able to use it to replace each of the iterative grapple checks.
However, I don't think grappling a hydra would work. It wins the initial grapple check, so you never actually get a hold on it, so it never is restricted to doing grapple checks for damage.
-The Souljourner
Still not quite right. You can use the Attack Your Opponent option to make an attack with a Natural Weapon at a -4 penalty. This would be one of the options that can be used in place of your attacks, but at successively lower attack bonuses.FrankTrollman said:
So you actually make Iterative attacks with your natural weapons when you are grappling. Seems odd, and makes some of the higher HD creature really nasty, as they get more attacks when grappling than when using their normal natural weapon attacks. Lord help you if you get grappled by the Tarrasque, with a BAB of +48 that's a lot of attacks.
Snipehunt
First Post
After thinking it over a littler (well, ok sleeping), I agree w/ Caliban's reading. I think the grapple rules supercede the normal "Natural Weapon" rules, and let the monster get iterative attacks w/ a natural weapon. Each "iterative grapple check" lets the monster chose to do an attack w/ a natural weapon, if at -4.
IMO, also fits the "can't attack with two weapons" rule, as the monster only attacks w/ a single natural attack method - one weapon. Just like a rogue using a dagger several times in a grapple.
Monsters really do get screwed under most of these rules. A 10-headed hydra has only a +23 grapple check. Chicken feed for a mid-level druid or enlarged fighter. I've seen pretty average fighter builds get to grapple checks of 23 at 10th level. Not a bad tradeoff to get rid of 10 attacks a round, especially w/ the current lame sunder rules
IMO, also fits the "can't attack with two weapons" rule, as the monster only attacks w/ a single natural attack method - one weapon. Just like a rogue using a dagger several times in a grapple.
Monsters really do get screwed under most of these rules. A 10-headed hydra has only a +23 grapple check. Chicken feed for a mid-level druid or enlarged fighter. I've seen pretty average fighter builds get to grapple checks of 23 at 10th level. Not a bad tradeoff to get rid of 10 attacks a round, especially w/ the current lame sunder rules
