Full circle: D&D now being based on video games...

[MoogleEmpMog]

The one aspect they REALLY want to be able to imitate - deep, spontaneous interactivity - will remain out of their reach far into the forseeable future.

Actually, AFAICT, this is an aspect only a comparatively small number of game developers want to imitate.

None of the kinds of games I like (fighting games, action/adventure games, console/JRPGs, Tactics/RPGs, sports games, first person shooters, combat flight sims, point-and-click adventure games and turn-based strategy games) give any indication of wanting to imitate deep, spontaneous interactivity. Adopting it would completely kill the storytelling potential central to at least three of those genres (console/JRPGs, Tactics/RPGs and adventure games), and it would be pretty much nonsensical in others (sports, TBS).

 

[Jack99]

I'm thinking that the fighter being pigeonholed into a "defender" role is fairly video-gamey.

First place I encountered that was in an MMO.

You mean like in 1 and 2e?

 

[KingCrab]

The Dragon Shaman's abilities in 3.5 were pretty much right out of the paladin auras from Diablo II. D&D has been stealing from video games for a long time.

I'm not looking forward to 4e, but I don't think that being too much like some current video games is going to be one of the major problems.

 

[ForceUser]

I'm thinking that the fighter being pigeonholed into a "defender" role is fairly video-gamey.

First place I encountered that was in an MMO.

I agree. D&D has definitely taken on the feel of a fantasy MMO---I don't recall there ever being discussions about "class balance," for instance, prior to 3rd edition, which hit two years after fantasy MMORPGs really took off with the success of EverQuest. I also don't recall 2nd edition being at all concerned, as a game system, with the sort of magic item proliferation we've seen in 3rd edition---the drive to fill out the paper doll (that is, to get a magic item in every available slot), the same way characters do in MMORPGs. A strong concern over a feeling of progression is also a new element that arrived with 3rd edition, and mirrors the concern that MMORPG designers have with enabling a constant series of minor upgrades in character power, to foster a sustained sense of accomplishment in a persistent game world. In an MMO, this is the primary driving factor behind playing, and it has clearly become a strong factor in the development of D&D. In 4th edition this is being taken a step further, with an expansion of the core levels from 20 to 30, and a stated desire by the D&D developers to spread out the acquisition of class and racial features along the 30-level path, in exactly the same fashion that video game designers sculpt character classes in level-based MMOs.

In short, it is obvious to me that MMORPGs now influence D&D game design, whereas originally MMORPGs and their predecessor MUDs were inspired by D&D. This doesn't surprise me, given that at least one D&D developer plays World of Warcraft enough to have a high level character in a hardcore raiding guild. I have no doubt that other D&D developers have also become avid MMORPG fans. As gamers, we gain from this influence a transparent and uniform system of rules mechanics that is designed to be fair and dynamic, and is built with room to evolve. What we lose, however, is that childish sense of magic and wonder that propelled us to play D&D in the first place, since the game is so patently mechanical and polished now. There was a rough-edged charm to previous editions of D&D that modern editions of the game will never regain.

 

[Green Knight]

I'm thinking that the fighter being pigeonholed into a "defender" role is fairly video-gamey.

First place I encountered that was in an MMO.

First place I encountered that was in AD&D 17 years ago.

Seriously, the Fighter, Cleric, Thief, and Mage have always been at the core of D&D. When thinking of a "proper" four man party, that's what one thinks of. And there's a reason for that. Because of each of those classes performed a specific function within the party. All MMO's did was identify WHY those four classes were a solid foundation for parties in D&D and made sure that the equivalent classes in them did those jobs well. And that's all 4E is doing. Identifying the four most important roles in the game, occupied by the Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Rogue, and ensuring that EVERY class can fill one of those roles. That way a group of players can take, say, a Paladin, Druid, Warlock, and Monk and not feel completely gimped.

 

[PeterWeller]

I agree. D&D has definitely taken on the feel of a fantasy MMO---I don't recall there ever being discussions about "class balance," for instance, prior to 3rd edition, which hit two years after fantasy MMORPGs really took off with the success of EverQuest. I also don't recall 2nd edition being at all concerned, as a game system, with the sort of magic item proliferation we've seen in 3rd edition---the drive to fill out the paper doll (that is, to get a magic item in every available slot), the same way characters do in MMORPGs. A strong concern over a feeling of progression is also a new element that arrived with 3rd edition, and mirrors the concern that MMORPG designers have with enabling a constant series of minor upgrades in character power, to foster a sustained sense of accomplishment in a persistent game world. In an MMO, this is the primary driving factor behind playing, and it has clearly become a strong factor in the development of D&D. In 4th edition this is being taken a step further, with an expansion of the core levels from 20 to 30, and a stated desire by the D&D developers to spread out the acquisition of class and racial features along the 30-level path, in exactly the same fashion that video game designers sculpt character classes in level-based MMOs.

In short, it is obvious to me that MMORPGs now influence D&D game design, whereas originally MMORPGs and their predecessor MUDs were inspired by D&D. This doesn't surprise me, given that at least one D&D developer plays World of Warcraft enough to have a high level character in a hardcore raiding guild. I have no doubt that other D&D developers have also become avid MMORPG fans. As gamers, we gain from this influence a transparent and uniform system of rules mechanics that is designed to be fair and dynamic, and is built with room to evolve. What we lose, however, is that childish sense of magic and wonder that propelled us to play D&D in the first place, since the game is so patently mechanical and polished now. There was a rough-edged charm to previous editions of D&D that modern editions of the game will never regain.

I kind of agree with you on a lot of points. I think class balance and magic item proliferation were brought to the fore of discussion largely because MMOs got a lot of people thinking about them. I totally disagree with you about the feeling of progression. Leveling up has always been important to many, if not most, players. Improving and evolving your character has always been a major draw of RPGs, table top and video game, over their war game cousins.

The thing about MMOs is that they have given RPG developers, both table top and video game, a lot more information about making combat fun, challenging, and engaging for all players, and, really, that's the only thing they have given the table top RPG developers. That's the only part of the table top experience they can really replicate. Even in highly RP and player driven MMOs like EVE, everything boils down to getting into a big fight, and that's where the challenges of balance are worked out.

I also sort of disagree with your last point about D&D's "rough-edged charm." I am filled with a great sense of wonder over 4E. I'm truly excited. I wonder how much your sentiment is based in nostalgia. Not saying there's anything wrong with that. There's a rosy glow to my memories of playing KotB at the lunch table.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Or the Dragon's Tail Cut.

Damn. The more often I hear this, the more I like it!

 

[Maggan]

D&D has definitely taken on the feel of a fantasy MMO

Nope. All those things have been hallmarks of D&D/AD&D since at least BECM/AD&D1st edition.

Just read the discussions on balance in the early issues of Dragon, or ponder a while when the term "Monty Haul" originated. And BECM D&D went to level 36, and then to Immortal, so that's nothing new and certainly not proof of MMO influences.

I think that you are disregarding a lot of the history of the game to come to the conclusion that the things you list are new to the game, and that therefore D&D is now influenced by MMOs.

/M

 

[FourthBear]

I agree. D&D has definitely taken on the feel of a fantasy MMO---I don't recall there ever being discussions about "class balance," for instance, prior to 3rd edition, which hit two years after fantasy MMORPGs really took off with the success of EverQuest. I also don't recall 2nd edition being at all concerned, as a game system, with the sort of magic item proliferation we've seen in 3rd edition---the drive to fill out the paper doll (that is, to get a magic item in every available slot), the same way characters do in MMORPGs.

I definitely recall many, many discussions of class balance back in 1e and 2e days, not just one or two. Heck, don't you recall the uproar about Unearthed Arcana and the barbarian and cavalier classes?

And the proliferation of magic items and their importance to character power was also noted many times, as in the many complaints about Monty Haul campaigns and "munchkins all with the Wand of Orcus, the Hand of Vecna and the Invulnerable Coat of Arnd". While we may not agree with their solution, I believe that the designers of Third Edition were trying to *control* abuse of magic item proliferation (or at least work it into the game system). In 1e and 2e, magic item creation and appearance in campaigns were all over the map. Some campaigns stripped magic items out of modules and you were lucky to have a +2 weapon by the time you reached 12th level. In others (and I am a direct witness to many of this in First Edition), magic items were found on every guard, looted off every enemy and found by the gross in dragon hoards. A very common complaint about many 1e and 2e modules (both independently published and in Dungeon magazine) was that they were far too free in having available magic items and that characters who played through many of them would be hauling around bags full of them. I believe that Third Edition's "item slots" were more conceived to control and restrict the number of items that a character could have. I do agree that they ended up being simply the minimum number of items your character needed. Further, the expected wealth level of PCs in 3e I feel also was intended to control Monty Haul syndrome, which again preexisted 3e by a long period of time. I think that experience of 3e's design decisions has led to changes in 4e that I'm sure the designers are hoping will do a better job of preventing this.

 

[FourthBear]

I will note that it seems perverse to complain about magic item proliferation bringing D&D closer to MMORPGs. One of the most consistent claims from the 4e designers is that the game will work to reduce the magic item "Christmas Tree Effect." This seems to be constantly and consistently ignored by those complaining that D&D is turning into a CRPG or MMORPG. It's pretty much in direct contradiction and in the opposite direction of the vast majority of CRPGs. So why isn't the reduction of magic item dependence considered a reason why clearly 4e is *not* turning D&D into a CRPG?