Full circle: D&D now being based on video games...

[lukelightning]

How about an adventure where you run around a maze picking up coins while being chased by four ghosts. In certain sections of the maze are orbs that when broken turn the ghosts...

 

[Doug McCrae]

How about an adventure where you run around a maze picking up coins while being chased by four ghosts. In certain sections of the maze are orbs that when broken turn the ghosts...

That's a really good idea. I think I'd remove the coins though, too obvious. A dungeon with four invincible ghosts that lair at the centre and sometimes come out to harrass the PCs. There are four magic weapons that can harm them - sword, mace, dagger, wand of magic missiles - concealed in different areas.

That's starting to feel rather Gygaxian old school but it's really totally video-gamey! Ha ha!

 

[BiggusGeekus]

The thing about MMOs is that they have given RPG developers, both table top and video game, a lot more information about making combat fun, challenging, and engaging for all players, and, really, that's the only thing they have given the table top RPG developers.

Exactly.

Back in the day, we had these wandering monster tables. You could have a cave of hobgoblins and all of the sudden a green slime would come bubbling down the corridor. No story, no roleplay, just an attack. MMOs and CRPGs have plenty of these kinds of things, monsters standing around as filler. I think that's encouraged RPG designers to pay more attention to the story and the action because if they have a "monster zoo" then they really aren't doing much better than a randomly generated dungeon.

I think the MMO community goes overboard with game balance, but there is a point to it. My group has an amateur actor who performed in college and does the rare local community theater role. We also have an accountant. The accountant doesn't try to power-game, he's just very good at numerical assessments. The actor sucks at that, but there isn't any question he's a better role-player. The problem occurs when both guys get even vaguely similar character ideas. The actor wanted to play a dashing swordsman and the accountant wanted to play a paladin. But the accountant had a better grasp of feats and equipment and tactical positioning, so the dashing swordsman was completely outclassed in his own specialty. There wasn't any bad feelings about it between the players, but the actor had understandably mixed feelings about essentially having to create his character last so he could find his own niche. Game balance does serve a purpose.

A point where I think I strongly diverge from the MMO-influence-concerned folks is that I tend to assume that DMs buying a product aren't good DMs. This is not saying that all DMs who buy products are bad. I am saying that the products should assume that. A good DM can survive poor rules and will excel in situations calling for DM judgment. A bad one won't. What I like about the MMO influence is that it leans to supporting the bad DMs (or good DMs who are having a bad day). Maybe this is catering to the lowest common denominator, but I don't think that's so horrible.

Happy gaming!

 

[gizmo33]

A good DM can survive poor rules and will excel in situations calling for DM judgment. A bad one won't. What I like about the MMO influence is that it leans to supporting the bad DMs (or good DMs who are having a bad day). Maybe this is catering to the lowest common denominator, but I don't think that's so horrible.

I think it can possibly be horrible. Fixing bad rules is one thing, but if DnD becomes a game that's only interested to beginning players then you'll lose experienced gamers. Losing experienced gamers means a loss of existing networks for players, new and experienced.

But ultimately my objection is a selfish one - a game that's too much for the LCD will lose my interest and those of my players.

DnD wasn't a game we played as noobs because we thought it was easy. It took a little while to figure out what a bec-de-corbin was. It was a game you could grow into, there were so many aspects to it that every time I ran it I felt thought things like "I could do that better next time", and "what if I tried this". Without a chance to make mistakes, there's really no chance to learn or do anything interesting, and I think the game would ultimately suffer.

 

[Driddle]

Remember when we used to say that video games had much of their content gained from D&D? Does anyone else now get the impression that things have come full circle and D&D is now being developed based on video game concepts of ease of play and depth of concepts?

The examples given were weak and easily argued against.

But, yes, I agree with the core message. The proliferation of online multiplayer games and home videogame systems are driving much of D&D's new edition design.

 

[Emirikol]

Wow, there's a lot of personal posts there

I meet more and more people who get into D&D from computer gaming now and it seems many players spend at least much time playing WoW or "whatever" and that must be having an influence on gaming. 4E it seems might be somewhat true to it's roots, but I"m seeing heavy influence from computer gaming elements and desires. MILLIONS of players well beyond what D&D has ever had are going to have a bigger influence on this hobby, it's stockholders, and it's developers than Gary will in the future. That's all I was trying to point out in my opinion.

Jay

 

[Doug McCrae]

The examples given were weak and easily argued against.

Yeah. Emirikol's basic point is actually right (very rare, but it occasionally happens ). It's just that all his examples are wrong.

The areas D&D is being influenced by video games:
1) Casters with at will abilities - 4e, Complete Arcane, Complete Mage
2) Better class balance - 4e. WoW for example has much better balance than 3e, or any trpg for that matter.
3) Monster fights with separate stages - MM5
4) Knight and Dragon Shaman - PHB2. Strongly resemble warrior and shaman from WoW.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I will note that it seems perverse to complain about magic item proliferation bringing D&D closer to MMORPGs. One of the most consistent claims from the 4e designers is that the game will work to reduce the magic item "Christmas Tree Effect." This seems to be constantly and consistently ignored by those complaining that D&D is turning into a CRPG or MMORPG. It's pretty much in direct contradiction and in the opposite direction of the vast majority of CRPGs. So why isn't the reduction of magic item dependence considered a reason why clearly 4e is *not* turning D&D into a CRPG?

Actually, it's only less like Western-style/PC/MMORPGs. In console/Japanese-style RPGs like the Final Fantasies, only the very highest level of gear is explicitly magical, if that, and the amount of gear characters carry overall is dramatically less than in any (published) version of D&D I'm familiar with (pretty much all of them since AD&D 1e). Some console RPGs, most famously Final Fantasy 8, essentially do away with equipment entirely.

 

[KoshPWNZYou]

That's a really good idea. I think I'd remove the coins though, too obvious. A dungeon with four invincible ghosts that lair at the centre and sometimes come out to harrass the PCs. There are four magic weapons that can harm them - sword, mace, dagger, wand of magic missiles - concealed in different areas.

Let's not fall into the sexual discrimination trap. We have to place doors that warp from one side of the dungeon to the other. And we can't forget to place pieces of fruit that provide big experience boosts when eaten. 'Confessions of a Part-Time Disembodied Mouth' due out in March?

4E it seems might be somewhat true to it's roots, but I"m seeing heavy influence from computer gaming elements and desires.

I trust the designers to not force any design elements on the game that don't work, whether they're elements inspired by video games, literature, comics, or even older editions of the rules. Those influences probably exist to some degree, but I can't see the designers implementing them solely for the sake of tapping into a certain demographic. 4e is going to go through a wide array of designers and playtesters who fall into many demographics. If a change inspired by a 'video gamey' mechanic hurts the balance of the game or diminishes the fun for a significant amount of people, they're going to find out and work to alter it. If the changes do work, and they serve to make the game more popular for a certain niche of players ... who loses?

 

[Emirikol]

If the changes do work, and they serve to make the game more popular for a certain niche of players ... who loses?

Exactly. It's not like it's a bad thing, but some folks take it personally that D&D may no longer be influencing the CRPG world and instead is *possibly* more the other way around

Jh