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[FULL] OOC: Dichotomy's Age of Worms Redux [FULL]

I have a proposed sliding scale for time of 'learning' spells and for adjusting the Spellcraft check. Here it is. For time start with 4 hours. That is how long it takes to learn a spell that is of the max spell level you are able to cast. Take the spell level of the spell you are trying to learn and get the difference of that and your current max spell level. Apply that to the base 4 hours, to get the time. Apply the same theory to the DC of the spellcraft check for each spell, using 15 as the base.

Example: If Bazrim (level 4) wants to learn lighting bolt (level 3) it would take 5 hours with a DC of 16.

This is just and idea.
 

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Just came up with the idea that maybe we should have it more like the leveling. So, 1 level away is +/-1, 2 levels away is +/-3, 3 levels away is +/-6, etc.
 

I think this is all way to complicated, and doesn't matter. I mean, there's already the spellcraft check. Also, who cares if you learn a spell you can't cast? If that's your choice, you'll just hold onto the book/scroll until you can cast it.
 

michael_noah said:
2)But see, it isn't just writing that we wait 3 days to tie up loose ends. Say, look at our current situation. To be more extreme, what if we're all adventuring at level 16, and we level up. Yay! except for wes. he gets nothing. We could wait around for him, but then the bad guy will have already won. Sucks to be Wes. See?

nope I don't see. We never level up until there is a story break ANYWAY, so there would be time to get new spells. Hmm, that time when we first beat the first branch of the cult is a counter example. Can you pre-copy spells into your book? I seem to think that the practice is not prohibited. If you can, you should be able to have at least one new spell one level higher than you are ready to go when you level up. By writing it down before hand, the time lag is removed for the rare cases where you need to kill the baddie the next day.


I think we are agreeing on alot of the rest. I agree that once you have deciphered a text with the spellcraft thing you should be able to have access to the spells in a book that you completely control. I think the RAW rule was trying to keep a situation where there are a couple wizards in a party, and they just put different spells in their books thereby having twice as many spells as they "should".

Additional notes:
MN said:
By the RAW, found spellbooks are worth exactly 0. After you spend gold, then your spellbook is worth more.
No, they are worth 50 gp a page, the same as after you copy what spells you want and sell it.

It makes COMPLETE sense that something you physically wrote would take less time to read and study than something someone else did. Reading my handwriting should be proof enough for that, and I'm not even using a "for my eyes only" magical script.

MN said:
The RAW time to write a 9th level spell in a book is 1 day. This is essentially the same as 9 hours, since you also have to rest 8, etc, so we're barely changing high level spells at all - we're just making low level ones easier.

The way that it is easier for high level casters to do stuff is the Spellcraft check. If a wizard fails the check, they can't try again until the next day. I don't think we need to penalize low level wizards more than that by making it slower.

Who says you have to rest etc etc? A dedicated person pursuing knowledge would totally be willing to spend 16 at least. However, I think that worthley's idea might be sound, but that the base time should be at least 8 hours. It makessense that a level one character should take a similar amount of effort to scribe a lvl 1 spell as a lvl 17 wizard would take to write a 9th lvl spell. Spells of a lower level should take less time, higher levels (if possible) should take more. One hour per level of spell lower would probably make sense. For higher level spells I think the scale should be more severe.
 

WHEEEEE!

So, as much for my benefit as anything else, a reiteration of the RAW:
1) Either make a DC 20 + spell level spellcraft check or use read magic to decipher the spellbooks (he already did this, using read magic);
* Failure on this spellcraft check means you have to wait until the next day
2) Spend an entire day (for each spell) studying it, then make another spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level) to "understand" the spell;
* Failure on this spellcraft check means you can't "understand or copy" the spell; you can't try again until you get another rank in spellcraft (GAH!)
3) Spend an entire day (again) and use up 1 page per spell level (at a cost of 100 gp each page) actually writing the spell in his spellbook.
* This, as noted by m_n, is the copying cost and does not include the "borrowing fee"

Next, the points that have been raised:

2) Amount of time to "understand" spells (copying is addressed later)
I think people are talking by each other. In particular, m_n is discussing the issue from the alternative perspectives that (a) the characters would not have the ability/inclination to spend the time; and (b) as a matter of game balance, it doesn't work. Ti is discussing the issue from the alternative perspectives that (a) it makes no sense that stuff (learning spells, leveling up, etc.) all moves so fast in terms of game time; and (b) the nature of wizards, the concept of personalized writing, and such. So, let's try to get on the same page. I'll try to help narrow things.

First, Ti is correct that (at least under some conceptualizations) wizards study/are bookworms/etc. I think m_n acknowledged it as true and dismissed it. I agree. Obviously classes are modeled upon concepts, but, at the end of the day, there IS a gamist element here (at least there is in the way that our group has nearly always roleplayed). Unless we want to shift the paradigm of our playstyle, I think these considerations (I tried to think of a good label, but failed) are secondary.

Second, both perspectives that I labeled "(a)" are related, but not the same. Regarding the speed in-game that things progress, I want to note that, while it does seem interesting for a party (various versions of the party) to go from 1st level to 4th level in under 20 days seems conceptually odd, the only ways to avoid that are to either put more in-game time in between encounters or to make encounters worth less XP (so that you progress more slowly). At this point, I'm going to limit my comments regarding these two solutions. Suffice to say, there are certain points (at the end of story arcs, for example) when it is very possible to "build in" downtime. The question then, as related to the "(a)" perspectives, is whether such downtime is sufficient to accommodate learning spells as dictated by the RAW. So, I think this is one of the questions we need to ask in attempting to resolve this issue.

Third, the resolution of this issue DOES affect game balance. However, I think it is relatively minor.

3) The concept of "borrowed" spellbooks [#3 and #5 are, in fact, completely redundant, so I've repackaged it]
There seems to be universal agreement that a wizard should be able to do SOMETHING that makes him able to use a spellbook which the RAW would call "borrowed" as if it were "owned." There, however, seems to be some measure of disagreement as to what that should entail. Possible proposals include:
* If you have used read magic and/or deciphered the spell in that particular book (as outlined in my reiteration of the RAW #1), you can treat the book as "owned" as related to that spell
* If you have learned/understood the spell (reiteration of the RAW #2) the spell in that particular book, you can treat the book as "owned" as related to that spell
* If you spend more time for spell preparation, you can treat the book as "owned"
* Some combination of the above
* The concept of "borrowed" spellbooks ceases to exist; if you are in possession of a spellbook and you know the spell in it, you can prepare it from that book

In addition to giving that helpful layout of the proposals, I'd like to reiterate the RAW on this subject:
* Decipher the writing (reiteration of the RAW #1; you only need to do this once for a particular spell in a particular book) AND
* Spellcraft check DC 15 + spell level (this check must be done every time you prepare the spell; failure means you can't prepare it that day)

Is there one of these solutions (or some other one) that you all prefer? The discussion on this specific issue has been fairly vague. I'm hoping that by cementing it as I did, we can more easily decide what we like.

4) The actual copying costs 100 gp per page
There seems to be no qualms about this. I would just note that the gold amount is relatively small and, as you increase in level, the burden of the gold amount becomes de minimus. I'd also note that, depending upon the resolution of the concept of "borrowed" spellbooks, this cost could further lessen (or vanish all together). So, I don't think this is really so much an issue now.

However, lurking in this issue, is the TIME it takes to copy. I think it is identical in concept with the time issue outlined in #2 with the exception already noted (resolution of the "borrowed" spellbook issue may drastically lessen the time impact for copying).

SUMMARY:
* On the issue of time to "understand" spells, I think we need to focus the discussion, particularly to the issue of whether the kind of downtime that can relatively easily be factored in would be enough. This is merely my understanding; please bring up other considerations, or reconsiderations if you think I inappropriately dismissed some.
* On the issue of "borrowed" spellbooks, we should look at the list of proposals and pick one (or add more, if needed).
* On the issue of actually copying of spells, the monetary considerations are not likely worth the effort to change. The time considerations should be considered in the same matter that we consider the time to "understand" spells, with the knowledge that resolution of the "borrowed" spellbooks issue could reduce or eliminate this issue to a large extent.
 

I hate pouring gas on this fire, but I have several spellbooks, some of those have doubled up spells. Are spells with the same name in different books considered as the same or different spells when it comes to missing my spellcraft check?
 

Gas is good. They would be COMPLETELY different checks.

I'm willing to give on the one hour per spell level for copying issue. Definitely for writing, iffy for understanding the spell as well. I do still like the notion presented by worthley of a scale for the time required to understand the spell. It seems like it would be simple enough to establish and it would make low level spells way easy to copy for for high level wizards. I believe that I would be ok with comprehending a spellbook "style" and allowing the wizard to prepare from that book for something simple like 2 hours of preparation instead of the normal 1. That should still be accommodating for the impatient as well as useful for the rare case of needing the spell NOW.

Something I just (re?)noticed in re-re-re-reading the section is that you can already cast from an acquired spellbook by passing a dc 15 spellcraft. at level 4 that means rolling higher than a 7, that's not unwieldy. Ah, it's only for 'known' spells. Interesting. In this specific instance, worthley could reasonably guess that his opponent has lightning and fireball both in the spell book and make them his known spells whenever y'all gain the level. That would probably effectively work in most situations where we would acquire a spellbook and need the spells right away.
 

I'll be brief, because I don't have much time right now.

First, I talked to worthley a bit via chat about this already. As far as his question is concerned, it may depend upon how we resolve the other issues on the table. It may also depend upon WHICH spellcraft check we are discussing. (Perhaps you'd get different checks for preparing but not for learning or somesuch.)

Second, Ti's "concession" and comments in his last post discuss the mechanics, but I still think we need to address issues BEHIND the mechanics. The issues (as I see them anyway) have little to do with what level of spell is being learned/copied.

Third, that bit about guessing what spell to learn simply doesn't work (as I read it). If Bazrim DID guess the guy had fireball, and then DID choose to make that his learned spell upon leveling up, it would ALREADY be in his own spellbook (because the spells a wizard auto-learns upon leveling up are also automatically in his spellbook; he doesn't need to spend the time/gold copying them).
 

srd said:
Spells Gained at a New Level

Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.
I read this (particularly the part "...to add to her spellbook.") as meaning that it still has to be written in under RAW as opposed to automatically appears in the book. If that interpretation is mistaken that's fine.
 

My understanding is that when you gain a level 2 spells 'magically appear' in your spellbook. This is similar to what happens when a fighter takes a level of wizard. (insert oots comic here) It is just assumed that in your character's down time, they have been studying how to make that spell, and doing the necessary research. That downtime comes from the hours that are spent around the camp fire after travelling but before sleeping, not days staring at a book. The new level just marks the time that all those little bits of studying and such finally pay off.
 

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