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Full round casting and haste?

Bonedagger

First Post
A) You can use the extra partial action to complete the spell in same round you started casting it. (As in that all spellcasting speeds up when you are hasted)

B) Once you start casting you have to wait untill the next round where the spell will be completed just before it becomes your turn. (As in full-round spells requires that you summon some kind of external energy)

C) Other?

I know there was some discussion about this a while ago but I can't use the search funktion.

Please clarify answer.
 

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Bonedagger

First Post
Mahali said:
A. You cast the Full Round spell using all your actions and you get the obligatory 5' step.

That would also be my view.

It's just that I can remember more than one thread that contained this discussion. Just curious if some commen conclusion was reached and why. The ones arguing for B did seem sure that they where correct so.....
 

Lucius Foxhound

First Post
I would say it's B, but I've got no evidence to back it up.

Actually, rereading the spell, I would argue that you could take a partial action BEFORE you begin casting the full-round action spell, since it says in the Haste spell:

On his turn, the subject may take an extra partial action, either before or after his regular action.

As I read this, you could cast a spell, say Magic Missle, then begin casting Summon Monster III. You continue casting until your next turn in the next round.
 

daemonslye

First Post
Interesting question - At least more interesting than
I first thought -

Haste
Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The transmuted creature moves and acts more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.

On his turn, the subject may take an extra partial action, either before or after his regular action.

What is a "regular" action? Can a fighter make a full attack
(a "full round action") and then land an extra ("partial action") blow? Yes. Can a fighter take a move ("move equiv. action") and
an attack ("standard action"). Yes.

What does the PHB say?

PHB.p148:
Casting Time
A spell that takes 1 full round to cast is a full round action.

SRD?

SRD:
Cast a spell(full-round) [Full][AoO: Yes]

Description: The spell will take effect just before the caster's action in the next round.

A combatant can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after casting such a spell, but cannot otherwise move.

The interesting angle of the issue lies within the question:

"So you can speed up the physical. Can you speed up
magic (say a summoning? a spell that takes 1min?)"

Lets look at spells that take 1min:

PHB.p148:
Casting Time
A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn one minute later (and for each of those ten rounds, you are casting the spell as a full round action)

So do you somehow cast the spell quicker if you were hasted
for those ten rounds? What if you were only hasted for five
rounds?

My inclination would be to rule that haste grants a physical
speed enhancement such that you are granted an extra
partial action in addition to your standard+move equiv or
"full attack" (as defined in the SRD) actions. Other full round
physical actions may be ruled on a case-by-case - "Charge"
action would leave you with an extra partial at the end of
the charge (as may "Climb(fast)", "Dive", and "Double Move").
"Change Form" and "Cast a Full Round Spell"
seem to have other circumstantial factors that make them a "full
round" action (and unaffected by haste).

Other misc actions:

Actions that may be hasted (IMO):

Escape from a net [Full][AoO: Yes]
Extinguish flames [Full][AoO: No]
Light a torch [Full][AoO: Yes]
Load a heavy crossbow [Full][AoO: Yes]
Load a repeating crossbow [Full][AoO: Yes]
Lock or unlock weapon in locked gauntlet [Full][AoO: Yes]
Prepare to throw oil [Full][AoO: Yes]
Throw a two-handed weapon with one hand [Full][AoO: Yes]
Use touch spell on up to six friends[Full][AoO: Yes]
Run [Full][AoO: Yes]
Coupe de Grace (well, I need to think about this one...)

Actions that may not be hasted (IMO):

Use a skill that takes 1 round [Full][Varies]
Refocus (no move) [Full][AoO: No]

Now, I am certain this has come up before - Any of the
alums on the board care to weigh in?

~D
 
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Bonedagger

First Post
Lucius Foxhound said:
I would say it's B, but I've got no evidence to back it up.

Actually, rereading the spell, I would argue that you could take a partial action BEFORE you begin casting the full-round action spell, since it says in the Haste spell:

On his turn, the subject may take an extra partial action, either before or after his regular action.

As I read this, you could cast a spell, say Magic Missle, then begin casting Summon Monster III. You continue casting until your next turn in the next round.

Well. Yes.

But the main difference is how easy it is to disrupt the spell and in what round it takes effect (In the case of Summoning: When the monsters appear).
 

daemonslye

First Post
I like the concept of using the partial before the start
of a full round action. That works for me. Otherwise the
full round action is unaffected.

However - Does this mean you cannot move after a full
attack action? ;^)

~D
 

Bonedagger

First Post
daemonslye said:
The interesting angle of the issue lies within the question:

"So you can speed up the physical. Can you speed up
magic (say a summoning? a spell that takes 1min?)"

<Snip>

But by being able to combine spells that have a standard casting time and Haste are you then not already using Haste to speed up the process of the spell? You can suddenly cast two spells within 6 sec. instead of only one.
 

Dr. Zoom

First Post
T&B, page 80, addresses this subject. Basically, if you do not use the partial action before starting to cast the 1-round spell, you have to wait until your next turn to take your extra partial action. Then you begin your next round and get another full round plus a partial action.

So let's say your hasted wizard starts his turn by casting Summon Monster 1. He casts until just before his next turn, the monsters appear and attack, he takes his partial action, then he begins his next round, including another extra partial action before or after his normal action.
 
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Bonedagger

First Post
Dr. Zoom said:
T&B, page 80, addresses this subject. Basically, if you do not use the partial action before starting to cast the 1-round spell, you have to wait until your next turn to take your extra partial action. Then you begin your next round and get another full round plus a partial action.

So let's say your hasted wizard starts his turn by casting Summon Monster 1. He casts until just before his next turn, the monsters appear and attack, he takes his partial action, then he begins his next round, including another extra partial action before or after his normal action.

Thanks for the reference. To bad I don't have T&B :)



I think it ruins the logic though but it must have been done because of the gamebalance, IMO. Summoning spells do get much better if you get result in the same round.
 
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Iku Rex

Explorer
Dr. Zoom said:
T&B, page 80, addresses this subject. Basically, if you do not use the partial action before starting to cast the 1-round spell, you have to wait until your next turn to take your extra partial action. Then you begin your next round and get another full round plus a partial action.
This is not the intent I think.

The Sage (Skip Williams, co-author of T&B) ruling is that a hasted character can use the extra partial action to complete a spell with a casting time of 1 full round on his turn.

So let's say your hasted wizard starts his turn by casting Summon Monster 1. He casts until the end of his turn, using both his partial action and his regular action. The monsters appear and attack immediately, but the partial action is "lost".
 

Bonedagger

First Post
Iku Rex said:
This is not the intent I think.

The Sage (Skip Williams, co-author of T&B) ruling is that a hasted character can use the extra partial action to complete a spell with a casting time of 1 full round on his turn.

So let's say your hasted wizard starts his turn by casting Summon Monster 1. He casts until the end of his turn, using both his partial action and his regular action. The monsters appear and attack immediately, but the partial action is "lost".

I think I'm still going to use version A.

I couldn't really find any problem with balance after giving it some thought. Many powerful spells have standard casting time. Version B would just favour those spells (Spells should already be balanced so full-time casting spells should not be more powerfull than standard-casting time spells).
 
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Dr. Zoom

First Post
Iku Rex said:
This is not the intent I think.

The Sage (Skip Williams, co-author of T&B) ruling is that a hasted character can use the extra partial action to complete a spell with a casting time of 1 full round on his turn.

So let's say your hasted wizard starts his turn by casting Summon Monster 1. He casts until the end of his turn, using both his partial action and his regular action. The monsters appear and attack immediately, but the partial action is "lost".
That certainly is not what the T&B says. If it was the intent, then they did a good job of writing the opposite of what they intended. I have not seen that sage ruling. Is it in the FAQ?
 

Iku Rex

Explorer
Dr. Zoom said:

That certainly is not what the T&B says. If it was the intent, then they did a good job of writing the opposite of what they intended. I have not seen that sage ruling. Is it in the FAQ?
The passage in T&B is "certainly not" as clear cut as you make it out to be in your post. Several people have asked the Sage, and his answer has been as I explained above.

Here is the e-mail I sent November 3, 2001 (Skip's replies in bold):

How does Haste affect the casting of full-round spells? I have read the relevant parts of the FAQ, T&B abd PHB, and I'm still not sure how it's supposed to work.

Every partial action you spend counts as half a full-round, action, see page 80 in Tome and Blood.

Douglas the Druid is hasted (round 1), and as he starts his turn in round 2 he wants to get of his "Summon Nature's Ally" and "Animal Growth" spells as quickly as possible.

1. Douglas casts Summon Nature's Ally as his "regular" action (a full-round action). Since Haste allows him to take his extra partial action after he finishes the spell (T&B p. 80), and the partial action occurs on his turn, the summon spell must be completed _immediately_ and he can use his partial action to cast Animal Growth. The *big* animal attacks right after Douglas' turn, in round 2.

2.Douglas casts Summon Nature's Ally as his "regular" action (a full-round action). Since Haste allows him to take his extra partial action after he finishes the spell (T&B p. 80), he gets his partial action right _before_ his next turn (one round later), when the summon spell is finished. The *big* animal attacks in round 3, right before Douglas' turn.

3. Douglas casts Summon Nature's Ally as his "regular" action (a full-round action). He uses his remaining partial action to finish the spell on his turn. The (still normal sized) animal attacks right after Douglas turn, in round 2.


Correct.

4. Other

#3 is correct.

Skip Williams
RPG R&D
 

Bonedagger

First Post
Iku Rex said:
The passage in T&B is "certainly not" as clear cut as you make it out to be in your post. Several people have asked the Sage, and his answer has been as I explained above.

Here is the e-mail I sent November 3, 2001 (Skip's replies in bold):

How does Haste affect the casting of full-round spells? I have read the relevant parts of the FAQ, T&B abd PHB, and I'm still not sure how it's supposed to work.

Every partial action you spend counts as half a full-round, action, see page 80 in Tome and Blood.

Douglas the Druid is hasted (round 1), and as he starts his turn in round 2 he wants to get of his "Summon Nature's Ally" and "Animal Growth" spells as quickly as possible.

1. Douglas casts Summon Nature's Ally as his "regular" action (a full-round action). Since Haste allows him to take his extra partial action after he finishes the spell (T&B p. 80), and the partial action occurs on his turn, the summon spell must be completed _immediately_ and he can use his partial action to cast Animal Growth. The *big* animal attacks right after Douglas' turn, in round 2.

2.Douglas casts Summon Nature's Ally as his "regular" action (a full-round action). Since Haste allows him to take his extra partial action after he finishes the spell (T&B p. 80), he gets his partial action right _before_ his next turn (one round later), when the summon spell is finished. The *big* animal attacks in round 3, right before Douglas' turn.

3. Douglas casts Summon Nature's Ally as his "regular" action (a full-round action). He uses his remaining partial action to finish the spell on his turn. The (still normal sized) animal attacks right after Douglas turn, in round 2.


Correct.

4. Other

#3 is correct.

Skip Williams
RPG R&D

Hmm... Before this post I thought that the core rules had been found flawed and that version A was the sages answer and B the T&B's.


Now I'm a bit confused however because the sages answer you gave is not in conflict with what the core rules say. In that case I wonder what all the fuss was about back then.


But your definition is the logical conclusion when using the core rules. It must be because I sometimes found Haste to be 'a bit' to effective that I didn't really question the basis for this discussion :)


Have I misjudged Haste? If so, will Haste ever forgive me for this? Will my players?.... Probably (Their enemies had the same problems :D)
 

Dr. Zoom

First Post
Iku Rex said:
The passage in T&B is "certainly not" as clear cut as you make it out to be in your post. Several people have asked the Sage, and his answer has been as I explained above.
I only make it out to be what T&B says. Skip very well could clarify that what was meant was not quite what was said. I have no problem with that. Of course, this needs to be in Sage Advice and/or the FAQ.

T&B says you can take your partial before or after you cast the 1-round spell. It says nothing about using the partial action to complete those spells early. It does say that you can complete a 1-minute spell sooner if you are hasted, but it requires 2 partial actions to reduce the spell's casting time by one round. So, IMO, you should not be able to reduce the casting time of a one round spell with one partial action.
 

Bonedagger

First Post
Dr. Zoom said:

I only make it out to be what T&B says. Skip very well could clarify that what was meant was not quite what was said. I have no problem with that. Of course, this needs to be in Sage Advice and/or the FAQ.

T&B says you can take your partial before or after you cast the 1-round spell. It says nothing about using the partial action to complete those spells early. It does say that you can complete a 1-minute spell sooner if you are hasted, but it requires 2 partial actions to reduce the spell's casting time by one round. So, IMO, you should not be able to reduce the casting time of a one round spell with one partial action.

It wouldn't have to say anything about completing it earlier. A full-round action spell takes just that to cast, 1 full-round action. It doesn't matter if you complete that full-round action in 4, 6 or 10 seconds. All haste do is to give you an extra partial action.

2 partial actions -> 1 full-round action. How slow or fast you complete your actions is irrelevant.

In the case of a 10 min casting-time spell it would consist of 10 full-round actions. In round 3 without haste you would have completed 3 full-round actions. With haste from the start you would in round 3 have completed 4 1/2 full-round actions.
 

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