Full strength bonus on both weapons in two weapon fighting

[Staffan]

Natural attacks work differently, and generaly get the full STR bonus always.

At least as far as I know

Not really. For natural attacks, there are three possibilities regarding damage bonuses to attacks.
1: A single attack, usually a bite or a slam. It gets 1.5 times Str bonus to damage.
2: Multiple instances of a single attack form, usually 2 claws. All attacks get full Str bonus to damage.
3: Several different attack forms. One attack form is considered primary, and gets full Str bonus. All others are considered secondary, and get -5 to hit (-2 with the Multiattack feat) and half Str bonus to damage.

 

[CM]

Our homebrewed "Ambidexterity" feat negates the -2/-2 while wielding a light weapon in the off-hand and improves strength to full damage for the off-hand. Our warrior-types are about equally split between 2-H, sword-n-board, and TWF. On the other hand, in one campaign when the DM allowed a character to attack with both weapons when charging, 3 characters out of 5 were TWF. That changed after the novelty wore off.

 

[dungeon blaster]

So let's say a creature with 2 claws (primary) and bite (secondary) decided to attack with just one claw. Would you allow a 1.5 str bonus to damage? I'm sure the rules say otherwise, so I'm just asking for personal opinions.

 

[Technik4]

There's also a feat in AE that lets you do it, there is a hefty Str requirement and 2-wf I believe.

Technik

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

So let's say a creature with 2 claws (primary) and bite (secondary) decided to attack with just one claw. Would you allow a 1.5 str bonus to damage? I'm sure the rules say otherwise, so I'm just asking for personal opinions.

AFAIK, it's questionable b/c what I've read is unclear whether the single attack at 1.5x str bonus is meant for monsters with only one attack or if it applies to monsters that only choose to use one of their attacks.

 

[KarinsDad]

If you simply wanted to say your off hand has the same strength modifier, then two handed weapons should get double, instead of 1.5, the extra .5 comes from yer off hand.

This is rationalizing a poorly written rule.

Both claws of a monster get x1 Str, why shouldn't both arms of Fighter with TWF?

The are numerous effects that give a flat bonus to damage not dependent on light/one-handed/2-handed. These effects will benefit the TWF more than the THF:

Mathematically, you are correct here for full round attacks, but the bonus has to be REAL high to help TWF enough. It will benefit TWF more, but TWF is so far behind THF damage-wise that your bonus would have to be much greater before it even catches up (except in the case of BAB +5 or less where THF does not get an interative attack).

Mathematically, you are incorrect for single attacks.


The problem for TWF is two-fold. The first is that they do significantly less damage on a single attack. Typically:

D8 + Str + bonuses versus 2D6 + 1.5 Str + bonuses.

No matter how many bonuses you add to both of them, 2D6 + 1.5 Str is always greater than D8 + Str on average (even if your Str drops to 1).


The second is that the -10% adds up significantly for full round attacks. For each attack in a full round attack, the TWF character does -10% less damage on each one. For example, 16th level with 4 attacks per round:

THF: x% + x-25% + x-50% + x-75% = (4x -150)% * (2D6 + 1.5 Str + bonuses)
TWF: x-10% + x-35% + x-60% + x-85% = (4x -190)% * (D8 + Str + bonuses) + (x-10)% * (D6 + 0.5 Str + bonuses)

THW will typically do in the ballpark of 10% to 40% more damage than TWF except in the case where you do not get interative attacks (i.e. BAB 5 or lower, and even then extra bonuses at low level tend to be small). The damage from the primary weapon for the first attack and the extra damage from the light weapon (even with big bonuses) usually does only a little more damage than the first attack of THF, but THF does more damage (2.5 points + 0.5 Str) and has a 10% better chance to hit on the iterative attacks.

In the 16th level case here with a 20 Str and a 90% chance to hit, an extra bonus of +8 is not enough:

(360 -150)% * (7 + 1.5 5 + 8) = 46.2
(360 -190)% * (4.5 + 5 + 8) + (90-10)% * (3.5 + 0.5 5 + 8) = 40.55

A bonus of +10:

(360 -150)% * (7 + 1.5 5 + 10) = 50.4
(360 -190)% * (4.5 + 5 + 10) + (90-10)% * (3.5 + 0.5 5 + 10) = 45.55

A bonus of +12:

(360 -150)% * (7 + 1.5 5 + 12) = 54.6
(360 -190)% * (4.5 + 5 + 12) + (90-10)% * (3.5 + 0.5 5 + 12) = 50.55

It is simple mathematics, no matter how many non-Str bonuses you have, it will never be enough (within standard game mechanics). And, the laughable thing about it is that you need a feat for TWF.


Plus, THF does more damage on Attacks of Opportunity and with Power Attack as well.


Personally, I think taking out the -2/-2 and keeping the rest of the rules would balance it mathematically. Basically because even though TWF would usually then do more damage in a full round attack, it would still do less damage in single round attacks, attacks of opportunity, and in many full round attacks with heavy duty Power Attack scenarios.

 

[Staffan]

So let's say a creature with 2 claws (primary) and bite (secondary) decided to attack with just one claw. Would you allow a 1.5 str bonus to damage? I'm sure the rules say otherwise, so I'm just asking for personal opinions.

Nope.

 

[Len]

AFAIK, it's questionable b/c what I've read is unclear whether the single attack at 1.5x str bonus is meant for monsters with only one attack or if it applies to monsters that only choose to use one of their attacks.

If you look at the monsters' stat blocks, there's no question. The attack bonuses for single attack and full attack are listed separately. Monsters with multiple attacks never get 1.5x Str bonus.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

In the 16th level case here with a 20 Str and a 90% chance to hit, an extra bonus of +8 is not enough:

Yes, but you've picked the 4-attack BAB, in which case TWF only gets you a 25% increase in number of attacks. TWF is great at lower levels where it increases your number of attacks by 100%. The problem is that you need to take the later feats in the chain to keep pace so that you continue to get 50-100% more attacks than the THF. Only a fighter can afford these feats.

Look at 6th level: assume +1 weapon, +2 specialization, +2 Inspire Courage effect (one of feat, spell, or instrument), and +1 Prayer are probably fairly normal. So +6 damage per weapon. Fighter 6 with Str 17 and Weapon Focus, and a foe of AC 20.
THF: Greatsword +14/+9, 2d6+10, (75%+50%)*(17) = 21.25
TWF: Shortswords +12/+12/+7, d6+9, (65%+65%+40%)*(12.5) = 21.25

Now, if the party cleric casts Bull's Strength on the fighter instead of Prayer on the party, the advantage goes to the THF. If the foe is tough to hit, the advantage also swings to the THF. If the foe is easy to hit (zombies, animals, etc.), the advantage swings to the TWF. At 5th level, it tilts in favor of the TWF since he gets twice as many attacks instead of 50% more. And, once the TWF picks up Improved TWF, he once again gets twice as many attacks.

I agree that THF is normally more powerful, primarily due to the many times when you only get one attack. I was merely pointing out that effects that add per weapon (with no regard to light/one-handed/two-handed) tend to benefit those with more attacks. With the right combination of such effects, you can do quite well with the TWF style. By 16th level, you might routinely have +5 Inspire Courage, +4 enhancement, +4 Greater Specialization, and +1 Prayer, for +14.

What are really needed are feats to boost the defensive value of Sword and Board style - not the offensive value, since there's little point in having it be just another form of TWF - or eliminating the Animated Shield property entirely.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, but you've picked the 4-attack BAB, in which case TWF only gets you a 25% increase in number of attacks. TWF is great at lower levels where it increases your number of attacks by 100%. The problem is that you need to take the later feats in the chain to keep pace so that you continue to get 50-100% more attacks than the THF. Only a fighter can afford these feats.

Look at 6th level: assume +1 weapon, +2 specialization, +2 Inspire Courage effect (one of feat, spell, or instrument), and +1 Prayer are probably fairly normal. So +6 damage per weapon. Fighter 6 with Str 17 and Weapon Focus, and a foe of AC 20.
THF: Greatsword +14/+9, 2d6+10, (75%+50%)*(17) = 21.25
TWF: Shortswords +12/+12/+7, d6+9, (65%+65%+40%)*(12.5) = 21.25

There are some problems with this math. First, you upped the damage of the off hand weapon.

THF: Greatsword +14/+9, 2d6+10, (75%+50%)*(17) = 21.25
TWF: Shortswords +12/+7, d6+9, (65%+40%)*(12.5) + +12, d6+7, (65%)*(10.5) = 19.95

Second, the AC you picked for your 6th level Fighter's opponent is 20. A little bit on the low side (considering that you simultaneously gave him +3 from a Bard and a Cleric as well).

What if the AC is 22?

THF: Greatsword +14/+9, 2d6+10, (65%+40%)*(17) = 17.85
TWF: Shortswords +12/+7, d6+9, (55%+30%)*(12.5) + +12, d6+7, (55%)*(10.5) = 16.40

What if the AC is 24?

THF: Greatsword +14/+9, 2d6+10, (55%+30%)*(17) = 14.45
TWF: Shortswords +12/+7, d6+9, (45%+20%)*(12.5) + +12, d6+7, (45%)*(10.5) = 12.85

What if he doesn't have a Bard and/or Cleric to help him?

Take a look at 5th level without a Bard or Clerics help against that same AC 20:

THF: Greatsword +10, 2d6+7, (55%)*(14) = 7.70
TWF: Shortswords +8, d6+6, (45%)*(9.5) + +8, d6+4, (45%)*(7.5) = 7.65

Here, he has twice as many attacks per round and STILL does not quite equal the THF.


What if it is NOT a Fighter? What if it is a Ranger or Paladin build? Then, there is no Weapon Specialization and the delta is greater.

What if he is using Power Attack?

What if he is doing an Attack of Opportunity?

What if he cannot do a Full Round attack and is limited to a Single Attack?

In all of these cases, the THF does more damage. To offset the TWF feat and the other feats in the TWF chain, the THF gets three other feats instead.

3 feats, just to keep more or less at the same power level as 0 feats.

Does that sound equitable to you?


There is no doubt about it. A TWF is almost on par with a THF at low level. Almost. As the levels go up, he is required to take even more feats in order to attempt to stay more or less at the same level. Plus, the prerequisites for those feats (Dex 17 and Dex 19) are quite pricey. Pricey enough that his Str will often be less than that of the THF. Hence, his to hit will also be less unless he also takes the Weapon Finesse feat (4 feats now).

That's not balanced IMO.