Full strength bonus on both weapons in two weapon fighting

[Plane Sailing]

Don't listen to these other posters. They didn't crunch any numbers. This is not unbalancing, in fact it's not balancing enough. It balances out two weapon fighters with two handed weapon fighters only slightly.

Just wanted to say: Great analysis KarinsDad. In the myriad 2WF/2HF threads this has been the clearest summation of the situation and related problems that I recall seeing.

I only wonder by WotC designers didn't think through the maths (and opportunity cost) when making their 3.5e changes.

Cheers

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Just wanted to say: Great analysis KarinsDad.

I agree. There are very few analyses that are strong enough to completely convince me of a particular point. Only two that I can think of, actually. This one, and the PsyWar vs. Fighter thread Elder-Basilisk an d Scion (and a few others) did a while back. Thanks for taking the time, it was really eye-opening.

 

[Thanee]

Here's another similar analysis of THF vs TWF in various stages, for comparison or whatever.

Generic 10th level Fighter with either a single +3 weapon or dual +2 weapons (similar cost).

Numbers in [...] brackets show additional damage with full off-hand Strength bonus.

Fighter
10th Level
Str 22

Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Power Attack
<+7 Feats>

+3 greatsword attack +20/+15 damage 2d6+14

avg. damage vs AC 20: 36.75 (PA2: 41.25) (PA5: 41.85) (PA10: 34.85)
avg. damage vs AC 25: 28.35 (PA2: 28.75) (PA5: 26.35) (PA10: 14.35)
avg. damage vs AC 30: 17.85 (PA2: 16.25) (PA5: 10.85) (PA10: _4.1)

Fighter
10th Level
Str 22

Weapon Focus (short sword)
Weapon Specialization (short sword)
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
<+6 Feats>

+2 short sword attack +17/+12 damage 1d6+10
+2 short sword attack +17/+12 damage 1d6+7[+3]

avg. damage vs AC 20: 37.2 [+4.65=41.85]
avg. damage vs AC 25: 25.2 [+3.15=28.35]
avg. damage vs AC 30: 13.2 [+1.65=14.85]

Fighter
10th Level
Str 22

Weapon Focus (longsword)
Weapon Specialization (longsword)
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
(Power Attack)
<+6(5) Feats>

+2 longsword attack +15/+10 damage 1d8+10
+2 longsword attack +15/+10 damage 1d8+7[+3]

avg. damage vs AC 20: 35.1 [+4.05=39.15] (PA2: 34.5) (PA5: 30.6) (PA10: 16.1)
avg. damage vs AC 25: 22.1 [+2.55=24.65] (PA2: 19.5) (PA5: 12.6) (PA10: _4.6)
avg. damage vs AC 30: _9.1 [+1.05=10.15] (PA2: _7.5) (PA5: _3.6) (PA10: _4.6)

Fighter
10th Level
Str 22

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
Weapon Specialization (bastard sword)
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
(Power Attack)
<+4(3) Feats>

+2 bastard sword attack +17/+12 damage 1d10+10
+2 bastard sword attack +17/+12 damage 1d10+7[+3]

avg. damage vs AC 20: 43.4 [+4.65=48.05] (PA2: 43.2) (PA5: 39.9) (PA10: 26.4)
avg. damage vs AC 25: 29.4 [+3.15=32.55] (PA2: 27.2) (PA5: 20.9) (PA10: _9.6)
avg. damage vs AC 30: 15.4 [+1.65=17.05] (PA2: 11.2) (PA5: _7.6) (PA10: _4.8)

I also don't think it would be bad to allow the full Strength bonus, TWF is costly enough as is.

And Power Attack simply isn't worth it, when fighting with two weapons.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Here's another similar analysis of THF vs TWF in various stages, for comparison or whatever.

Good analysis. The additional cost needed for two magic weapons is an important factor (and a major reason that the 2-handed sword does better against high AC even when you do have the two bastard swords at full Str bonus).

I'm honestly not sure how much of an issue the feat cost is for the fighter (it's no cost for the ranger, and a huge cost for the paladin or barbarian). The TWF style costs feats, but then again it has a lot of very beneficial feats worth taking. Not having played a high-level fighter, I don't know what feats jump out as worth taking specifically for the THF style. Leap Attack, maybe.

However, what AC you fight varies considerably. Our 9th-level party fought AC 14 fiendish T-Rexes and AC 26-ish NPCs last session. A dual-bastard-sword fighter would have been able to carve up the T-Rexes faster, then switch to single-weilding to deal with the NPCs (if his attack bonus was low enough that the +2 to hit more than made up for the loss of 2 attacks).

 

[Diirk]

Here's another similar analysis of THF vs TWF in various stages, for comparison or whatever.

Keep in mind your TWF fighting guys need 17 dex, too. Makes the 'cost' even higher (Even more so when they want greater TWF)

 

[Caeleddin]

I have a feat called Ambidexterity that you can take only on the 1st level. It eliminates the to-hit penalty and give full Str bonus with the off-hand. Otherwise, everything else is the same. After reading this thread, I will have to give some thought into changing this as it is pretty obvious that it is still bad. Although a TWF Half-Giant is kinda SCARY with this rule as it is (2d8 per hand with Exotic (BSword) base), I haven't had any player pick up that little loophole yet (thank God...!)Also, someone mentioned a Ranger getting them free. They don't. A melee Ranger will need to have a high Dex as a matter of course because of his lack of heavy armour, so the lack of prerequisites is not as great an advantage as you think. What is good is that he gets it 1 level earlier than any other class.