Fun end of Evard season

[jimmifett]

So last night was the last night of our evard encounters season. It was fun, and I got to show off how much off a Rat Bastard DM I am to my fellow players .

I was not DMing, playing instead a female dwarf knight, Overta Shoulda of the Boulder Holder clan. It had been a fun campaign, but unfortunately during the last battle, Overta was outright slain by some Wraiths and spawned as a Wraith Figment. So that I wasn't out of the game completely, the DM showed me the monster entry and let me play the minion for him, knowing that I'd be an excellent foil to my former party.

Little did he know...

The boss was already bloodied, and the battle was still up in the air with only one fallen player. So, I did what any good Rat Bastard would do: I shifted my minion 6 squares adjacent to the boss, rolled a 10 on my d20, added wisdom mod, and to the utter shock and disbelief of the entire table, said "Here boss, have a Second Wind... that ends my turn."

It took a moment for the table to realize that I'd just given the boss back a quarter of his HP. The poison dagger stares I received before we all burst out laughing. Our DM shook his head. "Well played sir"

Another player died the following round, and a third the next. The boss finally fell and two rounds later, the wraiths and zombies left for easier kills, only 2 players surviving.

 

[fuzzlewump]

Second wind

You can dig into your resolve and endurance to find an extra burst of vitality. In game terms, you spend a healing surge to regain some of your lost hit points, and you focus on defending yourself. Unless otherwise noted in the statistics block of a monster or a nonplayer character, this action is available only to player characters.

This indeed sounds like a funny situation, but should have been quickly dispelled as just a funny joke thing and then moved on. Everyone actually agreed to let the monster heal 1/4 of its hit-points? People thought 'oh hey, that's cool, minions should always do that'?

Like I said, I can kind of imagine someone somewhere thinking this is really funny and just going with it for real, but man, my group would definitely not enjoy this. Not to mention the whole rules thing. Unless this monster has Second Wind listed, which I don't think I've ever actually seen.

 

[jimmifett]

This indeed sounds like a funny situation, but should have been quickly dispelled as just a funny joke thing and then moved on. Everyone actually agreed to let the monster heal 1/4 of its hit-points? People thought 'oh hey, that's cool, minions should always do that'?

Like I said, I can kind of imagine someone somewhere thinking this is really funny and just going with it for real, but man, my group would definitely not enjoy this. Not to mention the whole rules thing. Unless this monster has Second Wind listed, which I don't think I've ever actually seen.

You are absolutely correct, an NPC creature normally cannot normally use thier own Second Wind action. But that is not the case, I made a DC 10 heal skill check as a standard action to perform a First Aid action on an adjacent creature. That allows the target creature to kick off their second wind, even a monster that has a single healing surge at heroic tier. They just don't get bonuses to defenses.

That is why Solo monsters are solo, so nothing can heal a huge amount of HP to it.

 

[fuzzlewump]

Right, sorry, should have quoted First Aid as well I suppose:

FIRST AID
Make a Heal check to administer first aid to a subject.

Action: Standard action. The subject must be adjacent to the creature performing first aid.

DC: The DC depends on which of the following tasks the creature attempts.
Grant Second Wind (DC 10): The subject can use its second wind, if available, without taking an action. The subject doesn’t gain the defense bonus normally granted by second wind, but still gains any other benefits associated with its second wind, such as a benefit granted by a class feature or a feat.

The creature has no Second Wind available given that it's not listed on the statblock, and it has no second wind to call 'its' second wind. EDIT: Note, Second Wind and healing surges are not equivalent.

 

[lostingeneral]

That's true. If a monster has a second wind it's specifically mentioned in the block. Bulettes are an example, so are liches and vampires from MM1.

Vontarin, as it is, does not have that ability.

 

[jimmifett]

I'll conceed the interpretation of "if available" to refer to an existance of a Second Wind action, even tho I believe it is more intended for limiting one second wind per encounter than the availability of an action type.

On the flip side, this interpretation also means that any allies/neutrals that are, say hirelings or DM NPCs, participating in a fight are not entitled to a First Aid action triggering a second wind. If your party is defending or just fighting along side a non-minion NPC, and the party has already expended it's normal healing, there is no way to kick off a second wind to help that ally/neutral controlled by the DM. If you wanted to be extra nitpicky, then a player not present at a session who's character is controlled by a DM is therefore also prevented from the benefits of a First Aid action.

Two edge sword and all that

However, if one is to take the "if available" clause to mean single use of a second wind per encounter, then you can have even more Rat Bastard fun with Dominate and charm. Everyone loves when a dominated character attacks itself or an ally. But how fun is it to use that domination to force the character to heal an adjacent creature who is on team evil? Which is truly a more dastardly use of Dominate?

I'll stick with the Rat Bastard interpretation of "if available".

 

[keterys]

Yep, most people don't have Second Wind, and need to be stabilized or an actual healing power instead.

Sounds like it worked out well enough at the table though

 

[jimmifett]

Sounds like it worked out well enough at the table though

The table loved it, and was eager to slay my 1 hp minion before it could repeat the move.

 

[fuzzlewump]

Eh, if a DM is controlling a player character, that character has second wind in its statblock, and thus the DM can use it if he wants to. Also remember, second wind makes you spend a healing surge, it doesn't just give your healing surge value in healing. The distinction being that if a monster is limited to one healing surge per tier (I think that's right, right?) per fight/day or whatever, then if you're allowing monsters to have Second Wind, Second Wind will spend that single healing surge. That monster can't heal any more with healing surges. So, regardless, the other player's shouldn't be worried that you repeat the same tactic with the boss again.

Second Wind, as quoted above, is something only PC's get unless it's explicit in the monster statblock. Second Wind is a power. It's not a healing surge. It's a standard action encounter power that allows you to spend a healing surge. You can use a heal check to trigger a Second Wind only if the person you are using the heal check on has the power 'Second Wind.'

It would be like if the Arcana skill had a thing called "Ignition" DC 15, if you use it on a creature it must use a Wizard Daily attack power of its choice, if its available. Would you take that to mean a monster with no Wizard Daily powers would suddenly gain one in order to use it? The only difference between the two situations is that you seem to have a presumption that everything should have a second wind. This is just not the case.

To be clear, rule as you wish and go with what is fun, but there is a reason I'm responding in this thread the way I am: this is a houserule. It doesn't really belong in any game, especially D&D Encounters, without first everyone knowing that it is a house rule and then consenting to it. The player's can then plan accordingly (or not play, if it was me. If DM minions were triggering Second Winds on every monster on every fight it would just be... boring. Grindy, if not overpowered.) Actually, a game with this house rule could finally see a party full of Bullywugs! Things that spend a healing surge in their Aura are weakened! But, if you are not the DM, don't present the ruling as a real rule. That is not cool.

(Sorry to rain on any parades, but I can't shake the feeling in my head how annoyed I would be if I was the one dissenting guy at that table, or more likely being the DM after the game who looks it up and realized. I think the rules are very clear here, though you may also want to look up fully second wind and healing surges if it still seems cloudy. I'll bow out unless you have any specific questions or something.)

EDIT: Actually, I guess second wind isn't it a power, it just calls itself an 'action.' It's only a power in the character builder. Well, in any case, only PC's get the action unless stated otherwise.

 

[jimmifett]

That monster can't heal any more with healing surges. So, regardless, the other player's shouldn't be worried that you repeat the same tactic with the boss again.

There were other monsters in play that were bloodied that the remaining PCs were worried that I'd heal.

Additionally, Second Wind is not part of a player's stat block, as it's an action.

By stat block, i'll use the definition from the character builder character summary as example:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Overta Shouldah, level 4
Dwarf, Fighter (Knight)
Knight Option: Shield Finesse

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 19, CON 17, DEX 14, INT 11, WIS 10, CHA 10

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 11, WIS 10, CHA 10


AC: 22 Fort: 18 Ref: 16 Will: 12
HP: 50 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 12

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +11, Endurance +12, Intimidate +7

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +2, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +4, Heal +2, History +2, Insight +2, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +2, Stealth +4, Streetwise +2, Thievery +4

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Dwarf Racial Power: Dwarven Resilience
Fighter Attack: Battle Guardian
Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura
Fighter Utility: Cleaving Assault
Fighter Utility: Defend the Line
Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike
Fighter Utility 2: Glowering Threat

FEATS
Shield Finesse
Level 1: Axe Expertise
Level 2: Heavy Armor Agility
Level 4: Armor Finesse

ITEMS
Battleaxe x1
Throwing hammer
Plate Armor x1
Heavy Shield x1
====== End ======

No mention of Second Wind in the stat block as a power or in any other form, thus when played as a DM, the Second Wind action would not be available to this character if one played by RAW.