Fun with heresy, or What's the Value of Micromanager Gods?

[Mallus]

Is their deity messing with them? Is one of them unknowingly worshipping a demon? Did someone get a cross-connection on the commune line? So many possibilities.

Right. My problem wasn't with The Sigils general point that the gods shut down errant worshippers. My problem was with how they went about it, how cut-and-dry the process is. The more the DM resovles these types of conflict without player input, action, and decision-making, the less the chance for interesting play...

 

[Zappo]

3) Some other forces have disrupted the Celestial Switchboard. There's a War in Heaven, or perhaps a fight over long-distance carries...

Something like this happened in Piratecat's story hour.

 

[Mallus]

Something like this happened in Piratecat's story hour.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

There's also an already built-in way for differing sects to develop within even a hands-on church, and is recommended in the DMG or the FRCS:

Domains.

Take, for instance, Sune (CG, Greater Goddess, etc.). Her domains are, what, Chaos, Charm, Good, Healing, and Protection, right?

So, within her church are several separate sects, all of whom approach Sune in slightly different ways. There's the Seducers, who choose Chaos and Charm, who seek to spread and enhance the act of physical love. There's Heartwardens, with Protection and Healing, who seek to defend objects and places of beauty. Likewise, there are the Aesthetes, Charm and Good, who deal with the moral philosophy of uplifting beauty.

All of these groups share similarities, but all approach the worship of Sune in different ways - and all are favored by their goddess!

 

[WayneLigon]

I generally go with a hands-off church rather than a hands-off god. The way I usually contruct religions in my campaigns is this:

Clerics and Paladins are special people, either through their intense devotion or by being directory touched by their god, respectively. The Cleric is the generalist Holy Warrior, while the Paladins are the 'Special Forces' so to speak.

Most churches have a contingent of clerics in residence or out in the area furthering the gods will but they are actually a small part of the church as a whole. The laity is what runs the church. In fact, clerics and paladins usually make poor church members because they are seldom there day-to-day. The non-spell-casting laity do all the work, including setting policy and direction for the religion as a whole. They could be of any alignment, actually, and often are. Even the higher-up, the equvilants to bishops and cardinals, are mostly non-spell-casters. They may use items, and that's about it.

Clerics play a certain role in this, and they are generally heeded because they can and do speak with the voice of the deity. But sometimes the church doesn't listen to them. Sometimes the church will even censor a cleric when he comes up and says something like 'Lady Vhama says in her Fifth Epistle that we should love one another forever. She spoke to me in dreams last night when I asked of her to clarify certain matters that have weighed upon my mind and the minds of my brothers. She says that it's perfectly all right to love another after the death of a spouse, and that she wants only our happiness.' when all along the higher-ups have interpreted that passage to mean 'You should be celibate after the death of the spouse'.

Paladins are the ones more likely to walk into a church and whack the head off a bishop or whatever that has been particularly offensive to his god.

As to why the gods don't micromanage as much as they could? Free Will. Without it, the entire 'game' they're playing against the other side is meaningless. Both sides could (and do) create races that heavily stack the deck (ie, usually the ones with an 'Always XX' alignment) but they have to leave most of the major races alone in that regard.

 

[Torm]

It seems to me that the ability of deities to just take powers back away from clerics and paladins has been a problem with D&D and the subject of much discussion and argument for quite a while. So.... what if they couldn't?

I don't mean they completely couldn't. But what if the effect of being blessed in such a way as to make Clerics and Paladins receptacles of divine power made permanent changes to the being? Such that all of the resultant being could never "fit back in" to the capacity of the way they were before? Essentially, stripping them of that which gives them power would kill them. This provides us with two things:

1. An explanation for a certain amount of loyalty even in Chaotic Evil Clerics to their deities - if a divine servant is entirely too far gone, and too successful at evading or defeating other servants, the deity can make their heads blow up go boom (provided they haven't begun filling their divine power from another source, like changing loyalties and prayers to serve another deity? hmm....).

2. A way to allow ex-Paladins to not get completely neutered, game-rules-wise, for becoming ex to pursue something else, and an excellent story hook for when they do - ex-Paladins and Clerics have members of their faith regularly confronting them, to either rehabilitate them, or if its obvious that's out and they're too far gone (say, from some good alignment all the way to some evil alignment, or vice-versa), kill them to end their heresy.

 

[Mallus]

Most churches have a contingent of clerics in residence or out in the area furthering the gods will but they are actually a small part of the church as a whole. The laity is what runs the church. In fact, clerics and paladins usually make poor church members because they are seldom there day-to-day. The non-spell-casting laity do all the work, including setting policy and direction for the religion as a whole. They could be of any alignment, actually, and often are. Even the higher-up, the equvilants to bishops and cardinals, are mostly non-spell-casters.

Wayne, that's a fantastic way to conceptualize things. Its so simple, and clean, consider it stolen the next time I build a setting...

True clercs and paladains are exceedingly rare. And there's no direct correlation between rank in the temporal church and clerical level. In fact, many of the qualities that help you advance in the church's political structure might just disqualifiy you from a real (read: empowered) connection to the god. So the folks with a broadband connection to the divine could be voices in the wilderness, so to speak. Lacking in political influence, their teachings surpressed, ex-communicated in some cases, or killed... and that's how splinter sects form.

Every so often there's a period of revival in the religion. True prophets rise up in the Church ranks, preach against the current doctrine (and hierarchy), real live miracles get performed, there's a schism, and a new variant faith established...only to have the whole process begin again, as the inherent shortage of real, divinely-touched clergy forces the splinter sect down the same path as Mother Church years/centuries earlier.

Did I mention I think this is terrific?

 

[Hypersmurf]

"God is busy, may I help you?"

Keep in mind Gods have their own petty wars to play out among themselves. Thus the Solars and Planars. Now what if a few of them started to interput the will of their masters diffrently, that could lead to divisions of faith.

"So a very inebriated Loki tells God he quits, throws down his fiery sword... and gives Him the finger."

-Hyp.

 

[Tonguez]

It seems to me that the ability of deities to just take powers back away from clerics and paladins has been a problem with D&D and the subject of much discussion and argument for quite a while. So.... what if they couldn't?
.

IMC Clerics get their powers by following the Sacraments of their faith (which in game means that at the same time each day the Cleric goes and does 'something' (prayers, burns incence whatever) - as per the core rules) now two different sects and even heretical ones can follow the same Sacrament and this makes the god happy (eg both Catholics and Protestants have a form of 'baptism' despite differences in Doctrine)

Now regardless of doctrine and despite being at war and considering the other a Heresy because of that Sacrament the clerics of all sects keep their spellcasting power. If however a Cleric follows a sect which fails to observe the Sacrament then the god withdraws his patronage and no longer grants spells (their ya go both hands of and hands on gods are covered)

 

[Byrons_Ghost]

Now what would be interesting is if you had micromanager gods who weren't consistent. The priests of sect A and sect B both get spells from the same deity.

This is how I've generally done it in my campaigns. My last Mystara game, for instance, churches of radically different creeds could worship the same Immortal, possibly even unknowingly because the aspects were so radically different. This was due to the fact that the Immortals derived power from worshippers, so they aren't too quick to just go out and smite congregations that are a little bit heterodox- they'd literally be shooting themselves in the foot.

One way to look at this is to think of religion not in terms of being dictated from down on high by the diety, but as developing naturally from the people, history, and society in the setting. The diety gets power from the faith of the worshippers- just appearing and saying "worship me now!" doesn't inspire much faith. So, basically they have to find religions to tap instead of starting the creeds themselves. Once a creed is somewhat formalized, and similar enough to the Immortal's interests that they wish to support it, then the Immortal becomes their patron. Pantheons arise from creeds blending together, either due to politics, geography, social exchange, or even similar philosophies.

So that was my take on having the Immortals be interested in the world, but not to the point of constantly nay-saying their followers. Taking their powers, or proving that you're opposed to their teachings, is just going to loose you the church. So, from the Immortal's standpoint, religion is less about having an army of devout followers and more like trying to get a group of kindergartners to give you moral support.