D&D 5E Further Future D&D Product Speculation

[Ath-kethin]

@Parmandur:
Both Planescape and the Realms will surely get the slipcase treatment, as you suggest, unless Spelljammer is a total bomb sales-wise.

Of course, if Spelljammer bombs, the question is why? Did people not buy it because it's a weird-ass setting, or because of the slipcase format? Hollywood is famous for learning the wrong lessons from both its successes and failures, here's hoping WotC is differenr.

I was talking to one of the owners at my Flags about the new approach with the upcoming Spelljammer set, and we agreed that it's a smart move for a few reasons. For one, the core books haven't changed in price for almost 10 years, which has to be hurting margins on some level. The new format is a great way to set a precedent higher prices while making the increase seem to be "worth it."

We also agreed that it's kind of a risky move, because; since they're arbitrarily changing how the setting works, there's a good chance that old players will reject it, and it's an off-kilter enough premise that new folks might not buy in. So far it looks like the risk is paying off, but the proof will be in actual sales and not just people talking online.

If it IS a failure, though, will it mean no more Spelljammer, or no more slipcases? I'm really curious.

 

[Ath-kethin]

Re: Dark Sun and its very dark aspects - reducing focus on the slavery and bondage aspect is pretty easy to do, and is unlikely to seriously hurt the sales of any product that they release.

When we were working on our Zakhara campaign guide, we made a conscious decision to downplay the role slavery plays in the setting, even though it was a fairly prominent part of the classic Al-Qadim material. We didn't "remove" it, we just didn't focus on it or prioritize it in the same way. We also put, right front and center, a notice stating that fact very clearly.

The result? We were the #1 bestseller on DMSGuild for over two months, and we have a Platinum badge. The biggest - really the only - complaint we get from our book is from people whining that we "sanitized" the setting or made it too generic - as though the ability to own other people was the only thing that made Zakhara different from other settings.

So I don't think WotC has a whole lot to worry about. Deciding not to focus on the problematic aspects of a setting isn't the same as removing them, and with Dark Sun there's always the option of reframing them as a heroic struggle for liberation, as opposed to the more survival-focused nature of the older material. The handful of people sniffling about it would likely be drowned out by the massive support from people who wouldn't have been interested otherwise.

Just my 2 copper bits based on my fairly limited, but still relevant, experience in the matter.

 

[darjr]

Source please.

Somebody got it.

I dunno what it means but if he knew they were working on it I think his post would be different.

But yea, doesn’t mean he would know.

 

[delericho]

Of course, if Spelljammer bombs, the question is why? Did people not buy it because it's a weird-ass setting, or because of the slipcase format?

It could, of course, be both.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

"According to Winninger, the D&D Team is “particularly excited for [the slipcase] format,” and that we were “likely going to see several things in that format” in the coming years."

< Darth Vader NOOOOOOOO >

So we can expect more products with a laughably low page count, very little focus on the actual setting (rather literally most of it on monsters and an adventure you're unlikely to run more than once, if you even run it at all), and which are 40% to 80% more expensive than previous products, even those with massively more content?

Great. Sadly looking like my predictions of re-orienting D&D into a lifestyle/premium product may be true.

As for Planescape in that format, there would be just 64 pages to cover:

1) All player options.
2) The entire metaphysics of the setting.
3) The Factions
4) Sigil.
5) All of the planes (?!?)

So we could hard-guarantee no Factions, for sure. There's literally no way you could include them. So we'd have to have the ultra-dreadful Monte Cook "accident" take on Sigil, where he replaced all the Factions with a number of three-letter acronym organisations (with almost intentionally dull-seeming names) and gave Sigil the vibe of a sleepy and insular Midwestern city (not even a college town!). I say accident because Cook swears he intended to bring the Factions back and it was just mean ol' WotC stopping publishing 2E stuff that stopped him writing another adventure where that happened (Cook has form with thinking his setting ideas are "better" than those of actual original setting designers though so I am skeptical).

In the original 2E boxed set, by the way, the breakdown was:

Sigil and Beyond - 96 pages
DM's guide to the Planes - 64 pages
Player's guide to the Planes - 32 pages
Monstrous supplement - 32 pages

And the maps and DM's screen. There was no adventure.

If we moved this to the new format, that 192 pages of setting and player rules being compressed into 64. Insane, frankly.

Then we'd have 64 pages of bestiary, largely unnecessarily given most of the most important PS monsters are already in D&D, so it'd just be "odds and ends" and Modrons, who only need a few pages.

Then we'd have a 64 page adventure instead of actual setting or rules info.

Honestly that would be a crime, and a quite serious crime at that! If they flexed the design, dropped the adventure, and just had a short bestiary, though, I think that could probably work. But I doubt they will. I strongly suspect they'll stick to the format whether it makes any sense or not until they get pushback, either in people moaning publicly in sufficient numbers, or poor sales.

Greyhawk would make a lot more sense because it'd presumably have basically zero in the way of player options and compressing the core setting into 64 pages is a lot more doable.

 

[Ath-kethin]

It could, of course, be both.

True dat.

 

[delericho]

< Darth Vader NOOOOOOOO >

So we can expect more products with a laughably low page count, very little focus on the actual setting (rather literally most of it on monsters and an adventure you're unlikely to run more than once, if you even run it at all), and which are 40% to 80% more expensive than previous products, even those with massively more content?

Yeah, I can't say I'm a fan of the format. Lower page count for higher cost doesn't feel like a win, poster map or not.

That said...

Great. Sadly looking like my predictions of re-orienting D&D into a lifestyle/premium product may be true.

As for Planescape in that format, there would be just 64 pages to cover:

1) All player options.
2) The entire metaphysics of the setting.
3) The Factions
4) Sigil.
5) All of the planes (?!?)

Note that there's no absolute need for the slipcase to be 3x64 page booklets, or for one of those booklets to be given over to an adventure. As you noted, most of the key Planescape monsters already exist in 5e, so I could potentially see them doing 64 pages of player material, 96 on Sigil and the planes, and 32 pages of adventure, or something like that.

 

[darjr]

Of course, if Spelljammer bombs, the question is why? Did people not buy it because it's a weird-ass setting, or because of the slipcase format? Hollywood is famous for learning the wrong lessons from both its successes and failures, here's hoping WotC is differenr.

I was talking to one of the owners at my Flags about the new approach with the upcoming Spelljammer set, and we agreed that it's a smart move for a few reasons. For one, the core books haven't changed in price for almost 10 years, which has to be hurting margins on some level. The new format is a great way to set a precedent higher prices while making the increase seem to be "worth it."

We also agreed that it's kind of a risky move, because; since they're arbitrarily changing how the setting works, there's a good chance that old players will reject it, and it's an off-kilter enough premise that new folks might not buy in. So far it looks like the risk is paying off, but the proof will be in actual sales and not just people talking online.

If it IS a failure, though, will it mean no more Spelljammer, or no more slipcases? I'm really curious.

Too late Spelljammer is already a big hit in preorders. Question is if it’ll sustain, sure, buts already a big hit.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Note that there's no absolute need for the slipcase to be 3x64 page booklets, or for one of those booklets to be given over to an adventure. As you noted, most of the key Planescape monsters already exist in 5e, so I could potentially see them doing 64 pages of player material, 96 on Sigil and the planes, and 32 pages of adventure, or something like that.

If they do that I'd be fine, but I just strongly suspect we'll see them stick to the 64x3 format until something actually goes wrong. I have to say personally, I'm actively put off by including adventures in products. WotC doesn't tend to produce adventures I find terribly useful as a DM, and at least when they've done it in other books, they tended to keep it pretty concise and I didn't feel ripped-off in the way I do by devoting 1/3rd of the page count to that.

 

[Parmandur]

My own view is that the increased cost of the slipcase format will hurt sales, and whatever they may have planned for it will be changed.

The initial Amazon numbers were pretty huge, but tine will tell.