Future Support

[C4]

To my shame, I haven't input in months. Between work and finishing up my 4+ year 4e game (ends August) I've been too busy to give it the attention it deserves. I also burned @Quickleaf by not fulfilling some volunteered art orders that I'm not too proud of. Hopefully I can make it up to him this summer.

For shame! Art always takes precedence over real life.

I think everything and anything to do with 4e is worth pursuing and posting on the forum, though.

Well in that case, the Complete 4th Edition is mostly* a compilation of classic 4e character options, and Points of Light is the true-to-4e clone I'm working on.

*With a few house rules for balance and smooth play.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Also, and I'm not 100% on this, but does the GSL allow for independents to even reference brute, skirmisher, lurker, etc etc roles? Also, I believe the Archmage System (13th Age) OGL, which has at least been perused by the people over at Pelgrane, might offer a potential umbrella to enable indirect 4e support.

Who cares what the GSL allows? No 4e retroclone is going to be GSL compliant - but they don't have to be. Rules mechanics can't be copywrited - and the presentation of 4e rules can usefully be changed. 4e is, after all, a d20 game - and about half of what's not there in the 3.X SRD is available from the Archmage Engine anyway.

As for how far you can go recreating 4e, ask the OSRIC guys how far they went recreating 1e. Far enough.

 

[Quickleaf]

To my shame, I haven't input in months. Between work and finishing up my 4+ year 4e game (ends August) I've been too busy to give it the attention it deserves. I also burned @Quickleaf by not fulfilling some volunteered art orders that I'm not too proud of. Hopefully I can make it up to him this summer.

I think everything and anything to do with 4e is worth pursuing and posting on the forum, though.

No worries I put the Planescape adventure on hold for now.

As far as collective design projects, I think it really needs to start with a group of people (at a minimum: writer, editor, artist, cartographer, layout guy/gal) committing and then voting on a project to focus on. The scattershot approach won't yield many finished projects IMO.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Mileage will vary. There is no denying the 4e elements in the game, but at the same time it might not scratch a few itches some 4thers expect/require to deliver the whole 4e experience (off the top of my head the more intricate tactical combat). I do think the Archmage System based on the OGL does provide a more legally-sound framework to support 4e without the GSL, though people more informed than I could tell you that quite a lot of the lingo is protected.

Yeah, to me 13A didn't seem terribly 4e-esque. It certainly shows some limited 4e influence and can play closer to a 4e style than many d20 games, but there are many really good parts of 4e that I missed in 13A. I thought some aspects of the game didn't work super well and seemed almost like "see, we did it different than 4e!" things. Still, its very well worth reading and trying out.

As for the whole OGL/GSL/what is really WotC IP its sort of moot. The mere fact that there is a huge question mark over 4e material pretty much poisons the well. Nobody is going to want to find out exactly what WotC will or won't object to. Given that 4e ongoing will be a system with less and less active presence amongst players its hard to see why anyone would put a lot of work into a high quality 4e publication when you can simply create something for DDN, PF, 3.5, or some other variation of D&D without any need to worry about what WotC might do. Nobody would fight a C&D from them, regardless of how much you might think you're in the right.

It seems to me like they're probably unlikely to get too peevish about adventures, especially ones that simply call out existing 4e mechanics and stat blocks as options in a system-neutral adventure or something like that. They might not get much bothered about a setting perhaps, but I doubt they'd be all that happy about a 'retro' clone of 4e. I think we're a lot more likely to see things like 13A that clearly reflect some elements of 4e style play but can solidly claim to be OGL games based off of material opened up in 3e, much like most 'OSR' games are doing.

 

[ppaladin123]

I have a ton of material...enough to last a decade. All I want is a final errata that corrects some of the larger outstanding issues in the game, issues that Mearls and WotC have themselves noted. I understand they don't want to devote development time to a "dead" edition but it would be a nice gesture.

 

[Pour]

I have a ton of material...enough to last a decade. All I want is a final errata that corrects some of the larger outstanding issues in the game, issues that Mearls and WotC have themselves noted. I understand they don't want to devote development time to a "dead" edition but it would be a nice gesture.

Square Fireballs.

Sadly, he isn't posting anymore. I think it's a good place to start, though if you rove the blogosphere long enough you'll find plenty of fixes. If only one hub could collect them all and create some sort of massive, comprehensive wiki or something.

And yes, we all have enough material to create stuff for decades, but I want moar. Seriously, looking everywhere and seeing new adventures for other rules systems makes me long for that kind of support for my edition of choice. But where are the would-be designers who'd consider supporting 4e into the future, given the hard truth Abdul laid on us above? I think it has to come from the fans. Organized, competent, and dedicated fans. Or fans enough to hold other, flaky fans *cough* accountable. Maybe out of love, maybe to get noticed by the larger (relative) rpg world, whatever, but I'm wondering who else is there?

No company is going to rely on 4e, and yet there are 4e fans out there shuffling like nomads, migrating to other systems or just sort of sticking it out with what they have. These fans deserve support. Hoping Sasquatch Games becomes one such supporter, and maybe Kobold takes pity in our growing obscurity to provided smatterings of support, but it's just not enough. Gotta get this enterprise off the ground, and soon, before we all kind of blow away like dust.

At least we still have some 4e material out of Encounters and Dungeon. Fleeting, no doubt, but there on a monthly basis.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Square Fireballs.

Sadly, he isn't posting anymore. I think it's a good place to start, though if you rove the blogosphere long enough you'll find plenty of fixes. If only one hub could collect them all and create some sort of massive, comprehensive wiki or something.

And yes, we all have enough material to create stuff for decades, but I want moar. Seriously, looking everywhere and seeing new adventures for other rules systems makes me long for that kind of support for my edition of choice. But where are the would-be designers who'd consider supporting 4e into the future, given the hard truth Abdul laid on us above? I think it has to come from the fans. Organized, competent, and dedicated fans. Or fans enough to hold other, flaky fans *cough* accountable. Maybe out of love, maybe to get noticed by the larger (relative) rpg world, whatever, but I'm wondering who else is there?

No company is going to rely on 4e, and yet there are 4e fans out there shuffling like nomads, migrating to other systems or just sort of sticking it out with what they have. These fans deserve support. Hoping Sasquatch Games becomes one such supporter, and maybe Kobold takes pity in our growing obscurity to provided smatterings of support, but it's just not enough. Gotta get this enterprise off the ground, and soon, before we all kind of blow away like dust.

At least we still have some 4e material out of Encounters and Dungeon. Fleeting, no doubt, but there on a monthly basis.

Agreed, fans have little to lose and won't really be deterred (or probably even bothered by) WotC as a more commercially oriented product might be. Fourth Party is a great idea and seems like the sort of way to go. What I think it really needs is someone with some serious creds to come and lead a project there. There are plenty of ideas and some of them have been developed a bit, but nobody seems to have the traction to attract a really active group of people to push one thing to the end so far.

 

[Pour]

Agreed, fans have little to lose and won't really be deterred (or probably even bothered by) WotC as a more commercially oriented product might be. Fourth Party is a great idea and seems like the sort of way to go. What I think it really needs is someone with some serious creds to come and lead a project there. There are plenty of ideas and some of them have been developed a bit, but nobody seems to have the traction to attract a really active group of people to push one thing to the end so far.

Hm, I'll see what I can do about acquiring such talent.

Now this is the type of stuff Kickstarter was really designed for, not companies having customers footing bills, but to actually scare up funds enough to support something with little chance otherwise. How much you think a freelancer with chops would charge for guiding a group of us through the design of an actual product?

 

[Pour]

Then again, from the outset I kind of made the decision that money would never be involved. It's like the shortest way to disaster...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Hm, I'll see what I can do about acquiring such talent.

Now this is the type of stuff Kickstarter was really designed for, not companies having customers footing bills, but to actually scare up funds enough to support something with little chance otherwise. How much you think a freelancer with chops would charge for guiding a group of us through the design of an actual product?

Then again, from the outset I kind of made the decision that money would never be involved. It's like the shortest way to disaster...

Yeah, and I can't say I disagree really. Money brings a lot of complications, though it also opens up a lot of options. Mostly things get a lot more serious and people lay a lot of -understandable- obligations on you. I think the 4e fan movement needs a sort of Wolfgang Bauer type of character that can pull off organizing a joint development effort of some sort. I know from being a sponsor on a couple of his projects that the lead is really the key part of it and without a strong one few projects go far (its just too easy for people to lose focus even when they have enthusiasm, the Internet is the hall of 1000 distractions).