GAHH!! Time to take a break from 3.5

[Steel_Wind]

[rant]

Alright. Yes. This is a rant.

It's not a rant AT someone or even AT a particular rule, per se.

It's a rant about the whole damn thing we profess to love here.

You see, I've come to the point where I have decided I got to put 3.5 down for a bit. Worse, I've also come to the point where I think that the thing which is bugging the crap out of me about 3.5 is going to get WAY WORSE in 4E, not better.

And as a consequence, I've come to the realization maybe I'm just a dinosaur.

The problem is that I have finally reached that point in my current campaign where boredom, burnout and high level tedium are all coming together in a Perfect Storm: and I realized that I need a break.

Not just from my current campaign (though that too) - I need a break from D&D 3.5.

The problem? The RAW is just too damn video gamey. And seeing as I happen to be professionally involved in making licensed D&D computer game adventures in the recent past - that's saying something.

The RAW assumes a lot of things that I knew long ago (like, 25 years ago) that I didn't like. But it had been so long away from it, it was an imperfect memory. Moreover, it was one without emotional immediacy.

The problem? A game system DESIGNED so that there are No friggin consequences. The party fightsand, afterwards? It heals to max for a pittance of inconvenience. I kill a character - they raise him or her in an instant. They run out of big gun spells? They rope trick and rest in perfect safety.

My RAW game has become like stock NWN1. The party is always at max, fights have no consequences, death is a temporary game state - not an event, and it's all one big hack n slash KILL HIM AND TAKE HIS STUFF AS QUICK AS YOU CAN.

The party gets treasure - and devises even more items to build or buy that maximizes their munchkinhood. They are DRIPPING with magic in my Age of Worms campaign. They are dripping with items like it was one of my Picnics to the Lower Planes Campaigns I ran 26 years ago in high school.

And there was a REASON I didn't run campaign like that again for 20+ years. And while I remembered the reason I hated them - it took me until 2/3rds of the way through the Age of Worms AP to internalize it again as a value:

I hate high power games. I really do. Most of all, I hate high power games without consequences.

And the RAW - that's what they are all about: no consequences.

Another encounter. More XP, More treasure. Level up. Quick!! More feats - more spells, More power. FASTER damn it. More!!! We need to LEVEL FASTER!!!!

Injured? Cure Light wounds wand after combat. BAMF. Everybody's at max again. Dead? QUICK - preserve life! Whew, Ok. Fix that again. BAMF Deduct some gold. Next room! ROPE TRICK. Back at it, boys!

Now, in fairness, I KNOW that the game need not be like this; that this video game like nature of the game we run is ultimately a choice as much as it is a consequence of the rules. I know that there are options which prevent it - campaign styles which discourage it. And yes, alternative D20 systems designed to ameliorate its effects.

But the idea of my PAST campaign was to sample RAW in all of its unbridled glory. To let the game play and be exploited just like it was written. To let the players run rampant with the rules as written and FILL THEIR BOOTS with as much as they could carry away, or exploit or reveal to be a Golden Covered Chocolate Munchkin.

That was my two year experiment. It had its moments, I'll admit. But I got to stop this craziness. And I got to stop it now.

Somewhere at about 9th-10th level, the game upped its power level to Super-Heroes Without Capes. And it was about then I just plain started getting crabby about the whole damn thing.

The video game nature of the system in all its munchkinized luminosity was beginning to shine through in RAW OVERWHELMING POWER - and I bloody HATE IT.

There. I said it.

It's not attacks of opportunity. It's not miniatures and "complex combat" that has got me down. Quite the contrqry. That's all good. It's none of that.

It's power levels without restraint; it's magic items that are no longer chocolate - they are THE MAIN FRIGGIN' COURSE BY DESIGN. It's healing resources that are so Uber - it's laughable.

This may appeal to somebody out there. But you know what? Screw this. It ain't for me.

So I've resolved to take a break from 3.5. No, not Iron Heroes or True 20 or Castles and Crusades. Not even Conan.. Nah.

I'm going to dig out the Rolemaster 2 books again and blow off the dust. I'm going to start my PCs again at first level and make then PLAN their battles. Because if they get it wrong - the dice will lop of limbs - kill characters and wreak havoc upon them.

I'm going to Flip to the Ram/ Butt/ Bash/ Knock Down/ Slug Attack Table and grin like a Rat Bastard GM.

I'm going to Lightning Bolt these bastards and HURT EM. With an "E" electricity and a "C" fire.

I'm going to look at them like they have snakes growing out of their heads when they "detect magic". I'm going to see them get EXCITED when they find a superior steel broadsword and act like the GODS have interfered when they find a weak magic blade.

I'm going to make them look at their food supply and worry about eating having to eat their horses.

I'm going to watch them apply a poultice of herbs to heal a wound, not search through the latest Heward's Handy Haversack for a Cure Light Wounds wand.

I'm going to watch my players look NERVOUS when they get in combat and the percentile dice start dropping in the open. I'm not going to fudge behind a screen. I'm going to run Rolemaster combat in the bloody open and let the dice fall where they may. I am going to kill some party members - and they aren't coming back.

There are going to be challenges - and there are going to be friggin' CONSEQUENCES again.

It's going to be Grim - and it's going to be Gritty. It's going to be Westeros just before the fall of Valyria.

And screw this "Man, Myth and Uber-Magic" stuff. Nah. There is going to be PP and I: Poverty, Pestilience and Inequality. With not a wizard in sight in living memory.

This 4 color superhero stuff might be fun to play - but by God - is it ever tedious as hell to run.

[/rant]

 

[Dice4Hire]

And you need a new system to do this. why? You can do this with 3.5 if you want to, but obviously you do not. Fine.

Hope your players are as ready for this as you are. If not, you might find yourself rolling dice alone.

 

[Cabled]

Amen

I arrived at this exact same point about 3 weeks ago.

Warhammer is our new flavor.

 

[Bavix]

Hell Yes!!!

YOU SAID IT ROBERT!. I'm with you 100%. The only difference is that I houserule D&D to do what I want it to do instead of switching systems. Though trust me, I do know what you mean and feel your pain with the RAW.

 

[SuStel]

Good for you! You're absolutely right: decisions without consequence do not make for an exciting game. And other games will do what you want better than d20 will.

 

[Korgoth]

I do believe I understand you, brother.

I won't knock on Rolemaster 2e. It's cool. I might submit for your perusal the original D&D boxed set: OD&D from the 3 brown books.

If you don't have it, you can get it cheaply here:
http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=28306&reviews_id=15587&it=1

I've been reading mine lately and finding it pretty eye-opening.

But yeah, fantasy doesn't have to be supers. Non-super fantasy is where it's at for me, too.

 

[Oryan77]

The problem? A game system DESIGNED so that there are No friggin consequences.

I've realized lately that this is something I have noticed about the system. But for me, it's more due to the fact that I've allowed additional supplements into the game, like the Spell Compendium, new classes, & prestige classes.

Given unlimited resources; a player will figure out what to choose for his PC so he can avoid any negative side effects for doing something very beneficial for his character. If there is a rule that would harm your character for an action that he would like to do often, there is a spell or feat that he can choose to bypass that harmful effect.

This has made combat less enjoyable for me. It makes it harder to figure out how to challenge them and it takes away a lot of fun tactics that I could have used as ammo.

But the thing that I keep telling myself is, "try not to care so much". Caring about that stuff turns it into a DM vs player attitude. You sound exactly like me when I complain about this stuff. Maybe it'll help if you try to be more on the players side rather than against them. Because in the end, who cares how challenged they are? If you can run fun combats, then that's all that really matters. If you can run combats where you still get to do cool stuff as a DM, then it shouldn't matter what the PCs do. I keep reminding myself that not every combat has to be a life and death situation. If I can get the PCs worried about a combat every so often, that should be just fine.

 

[Piratecat]

This will make you happy. I think you should do it. I'd WFRP, personally, but I've never played Rolemaster.

I think the moral of the story is "RAW are written for someone who isn't necessarily you." Playing what you don't love is no fun for anyone.

i've made my consequences all NPC-based and plot-based, but that's harder to do in a published module -- and again, not for everyone.

 

[Piratecat]

Incidentally, to everyone reading -- I wrote a useful note on how not to threadcrap. If you're tempted to post on how the OP is totally wrong and D&D would be perfect for him if he just did blah, now may be a good time to go read it. Sometimes folks just need to vent, and I've never seen a better thread for doing so without insulting anyone else's play style.

 

[jdrakeh]

Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that you try something that isn't High Fantasy at all. I specifically grabbed the old Myrmidon Press game Manhunter and Cubicle's SLA Industries about two weeks back when I realized that I was in somewhat the same position as you are currently (I don't think that D&D 3.5 is "videogamey" but I did get a bit burned out on it due to the ease with which players can circumvent consequence).

Both of the games that I picked up have largely static core attributes, don't escalate hit points drastically (and in the case of Manhunter, they aren't escalated at all), and throw plenty of potentially deadly challenges at the PCs as a matter of course. They're also 'party' games (i.e., players travel in groups), so they have much the same play dynamic as D&D but with consquences for not thinking things through.

SLA is pretty easy to get hold of (and the old supplements are now available via RPGNow). Manhunter is a bit harder to find, but worth it if you can snag a copy for less than $30.