Gaining epic levels

[questionmark]

Can you gain epic levels when your ecl breaks 20
can you have a ftr10/rog10/epic1 at level 21?
or is it ftr20/epic1?

 

[Crothian]

It's when your total level is greater then 20. So, you could have one level in 21 different classes and be epic.

 

[Pax]

However, you cannot gain an Epic level in a given class until you have ALL the pre-epic levels of that class.

For example, a Rogue(10)/Fighter(10) can not add "Epic Fighter(21)" as a class level yet. Similarly, a Wizard(12)/Elemental Savant(8) can not gain "Epic Elemental Savant(11)" yet.

But, yes, a Cleric(10)/Contemplative(10) can add "Epic Contemplative(11)" as their 21st level.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Note with ECL it depends on if you listen to the Sage, who says that you have to have a total of 21 Hit Dice, or the books, where its printed multiple times that ECL 21 characters are epic characters.

Personally I go with the books. A level 17 paladin half-celestial is an epic character.

 

[Urbannen]

The epic level handbook is pretty clear. You start applying epic rules when your character level equals 21. Character level is based entirely on hit dice. Gerti Oerlsdottir is an example of a character in the ELH whose ECL is higher than her character level, yet her stats are calculated as becoming epic at the 21st hit die, not the 18th or whatever.

The 3.5 DMG contradicts this in one passage, the introduction to the epic section. This passage states that you use ECL when determining when a character goes epic. There is an example given of an epic level bugbear fighter/blackguard. Whoever wrote the passage did not know the correct LA for the bugbear and thus even calculated the character's ECL incorrectly. The Sage however, correctly points out in a column marked 3.5 content that epic levels start at the 21st character level, not effective character level.

Becoming epic before the 21st HD doesn't make a lot of sense. The character could miss out on iterative attacks and more favorable save progressions. LA is supposed to be a penalty that only applies to PCs, but all non-PCs with LAs would get to take epic level feats at their 18th or 15th or earlier HD, while the average PC races can only choose normal feats at those levels.

 

[Pax]

The epic level handbook is pretty clear. You start applying epic rules when your character level equals 21. Character level is based entirely on hit dice. Gerti Oerlsdottir is an example of a character in the ELH whose ECL is higher than her character level, yet her stats are calculated as becoming epic at the 21st hit die, not the 18th or whatever.

Actually, the ELH also says ECL counts. Read the sidebar on Page 25, in the bottom right corner.

The Sage however, correctly points out in a column marked 3.5 content that epic levels start at the 21st character level, not effective character level.

And the sage is NEVER wrong ...

Becoming epic before the 21st HD doesn't make a lot of sense. The character could miss out on iterative attacks and more favorable save progressions.

Not true. Even if you have a +15 Level Adjustment and become Epic at 6th level -- you still gain BAB and BAse Saves based on HITDICE. An ECL of 21 or higher merely means you can (a) take epic levels in any prestige classes you are following, and (b) select Epic feats as well as nonEpic ones.

LA is supposed to be a penalty that only applies to PCs, but all non-PCs with LAs would get to take epic level feats at their 18th or 15th or earlier HD, while the average PC races can only choose normal feats at those levels.

The concept is, at 300,000XP you're ECL 25, and you're epic. a Level-Adjusted character shouldn't have to earn hundreds of thousands of extra experience JUST to select epic feats.

 

[Urbannen]

Actually, the ELH also says ECL counts. Read the sidebar on Page 25, in the bottom right corner.

I don't have the ELH with me as I am at work. I will definitely check out p.25 when I get home.

And the sage is NEVER wrong ....

I guess you're being sarcastic here. I'd like to point out that implying that someone has made mistakes in the past doesn't prove that he is incorrect about the question at hand. I distrust the reference in the DMG because whoever wrote it made another rules error in the same passage.

Not true. Even if you have a +15 Level Adjustment and become Epic at 6th level -- you still gain BAB and BAse Saves based on HITDICE. An ECL of 21 or higher merely means you can (a) take epic levels in any prestige classes you are following, and (b) select Epic feats as well as nonEpic ones.

Do you have the passage where it explains the mechanics of this process? All I could find was that at the 21st character level a character starts using epic attack and save bonuses and can start to choose their feats from the list of epic feats. The ELH even has feat acquisition past 20th level in the same chart as ability score increases past the 20th level. Do you also get ability score increases based on ECL? It seems arbritrary to say that you use ECL to determine some epic features but not others.

The concept is, at 300,000XP you're ECL 25, and you're epic. a Level-Adjusted character shouldn't have to earn hundreds of thousands of extra experience JUST to select epic feats.

I admit that there are unclear references in SS and probably ELH that say that a character with an ECL higher than 20 is considered "Epic." The thing is I've never seen any rules that explain in what way, except in experience points and treasure, that a character would gain epic characteristics until gaining its 21 HD.

 

[Voadam]

for reference

from the 3.5 srd

Regardless of the method used to attain 21st level, once a character reaches that point he or she is considered an epic character.
Epic characters—those characters whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently than nonepic characters. While they continue to gain most of the customary benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains.
Despite the twenty-level limit indicated in the class descriptions a class can be advanced beyond 20th level by using these rules. A ten-level prestige class beyond can also be advanced beyond 10th level, but only if the character level of the advancing character is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot be advanced beyond the maximum described for that class, regardless of the character level of the advancing character.

Epic Save Bonus: A character’s base save bonus does not increase after his character level reaches 20th. However, he does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws every even-numbered level after 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses.
Epic Attack Bonus: A character’s base attack bonus does not increase after his character level reaches 20th. However, he does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attack rolls every odd-numbered level after 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Only base attack bonus is used to calculate iterative attacks. In addition, base attack bonus never grants a creature more than four attacks with any given weapon using the full attack option, though special abilities and class features may provide additional attacks.
Class Skill Max Ranks: The maximum number of skill ranks a character can have in a class skill is equal to his or her character level +3.
Cross-Class Skill Max Ranks: For cross-class skills, the maximum ranks are one-half the maximum for a class skill.
Feats: Characters continue to gain feats based on character level as normal. Note that these feats are in addition to any bonus feats granted in the class descriptions.
Ability Increases: Characters continue to gain ability score increases based on character level as normal.

For multiclass characters, feats and ability increases are gained according to overall character level, not class level.

 

[Pax]

I guess you're being sarcastic here. I'd like to point out that implying that someone has made mistakes in the past doesn't prove that he is incorrect about the question at hand. I distrust the reference in the DMG because whoever wrote it made another rules error in the same passage.

I take everything the Sage spews with about four truckloads of salt. IME, he is more often wrong than right, and a significant portion of the time I can't figure out how ANYone fluent in english, and not tripping on drugs, could read the rules and come up with his answers.

IOW, to put it bluntly: I trust the sage about as far as I can throw him. Since I can't lay hands on him to pick him UP ... that equates to about zilch.

Do you have the passage where it explains the mechanics of this process? All I could find was that at the 21st character level a character starts using epic attack and save bonuses and can start to choose their feats from the list of epic feats. The ELH even has feat acquisition past 20th level in the same chart as ability score increases past the 20th level. Do you also get ability score increases based on ECL? It seems arbritrary to say that you use ECL to determine some epic features but not others.

Same sidebar, actually:

Regardless of it's ECL, a monster with class levels uses the base attack bonus and base save progression of it's class (rather than the progression shown on table 1-1) until it has 20 character levels. Beginning with it's 21st character level, it uses the progressions shown on table 1-1.

With a little 3.0-to-3.5 translation, remember that monster HD count towards character levels. IOW, whatever you are, you get normal BAB/save progression for your first 20 HD.

I admit that there are unclear references in SS and probably ELH that say that a character with an ECL higher than 20 is considered "Epic." The thing is I've never seen any rules that explain in what way, except in experience points and treasure, that a character would gain epic characteristics until gaining its 21 HD.

That sidebar in the ELH. Remember, when the ELH came out ... level-adjusted characters were still an infrequent "work-in-progress" concept.

 

[Urbannen]

You are right about the sidebar; I had never actually read it. I believe it's in error, and that the Sage was correcting it in Dragon 310. Here's why.

The sidebar says

"Regardless of the its ECL, a monster with class levels uses the base attack bonus and base save bonus progressions of its class (rather than the progression shown on Table 1-1) until it has 20 character levels. Beginning with its 21st character level, it uses the progressions shown on Table 1-1. In any other place in this book where "character level" is indicated, you can use effective character level instead."

"Any other place in this book" includes table 1-2, which gives experience and level-dependent benefits. Let's use the example of a Hound Archon Fighter 13 to see what this would do. The Hound Archon has a LA of +5.

Starting at character level 13:

Char lvl 13; Ftr7; ECL 18; Max ranks 16; feat no; ability increase no
Char lvl 14; Ftr8; ECL 19; Max ranks 17; feat no; ability increase no
Char lvl 15; Ftr9; ECL 20; Max ranks 18; feat yes; ability increase no
Char lvl 16; Ftr10; ECL 21; Max ranks 24; feat yes; ability increase no
Char lvl 17; Ftr11; ECL 22; Max ranks 25; feat no; ability increase no
Char lvl 18; Ftr12; ECL 23; Max ranks 26; feat no; ability increase no
Char lvl 19; Ftr13; ECL 24; Max ranks 27; feat yes; ability increase yes

According to a literal intepretation of the sidebar, this Hound Archon Fighter 13 gains feats at character levels 16 and 19. The first ability increase he gets after character level 12 is at character level 19. Between character levels 15 and 16 his maximum ranks for class skills jumps from 18 to 24.

Table 1-2 specifically calls the feat gained at 21st character level the 8th; however it would be this character's 7th.

The sidebar also changes the definition of effective character level given in SS:

A creature's effective character level is the sum of its level adjustment, Hit Dice, and class levels. Use character level for all game functions except awarding experience, determining starting equipment, and determining how much experience the character needs to gain a new level.

According to the sidebar, you don't use character level for all game functions except for those listed. According to the sidebar, once ECL hits 21, you use character level only for determining base attack bonus and base save progressions and nothing else.

I think the sidebar is incorrect because it creates mechanical inconsistencies between the advancement of LA 0 and LA >0 races. It also contradicts the previous definition of "effective character level", an important concept, without giving an "official" update. The Sage's clarification maintains the definition of ECL. It makes character advancement mechanics consistent for all races.

As a personal opinion, I think high LA races do just fine at epic ECLs without access to epic level feats, especially when their class levels complement their monster levels.