Gaining epic levels

[Pax]

"Any other place in this book" includes table 1-2, which gives experience and level-dependent benefits.

Yes, and "can use" != "must use". Some DM common sense comes into play here.

The sidebar also changes the definition of effective character level given in SS:

The ELH came out (in July 2002) before SavS came out (in February 2003). So, if either book is changing the other, SavS is changing the the ELH's take.

According to the sidebar, you don't use character level for all game functions except for those listed. According to the sidebar, once ECL hits 21, you use character level only for determining base attack bonus and base save progressions and nothing else.

Absolutely true. However, since the question was only in relation to the rules for Epic characters ... I referred only to the ELH. Had the discussion been broader-ranging, I would have also referenced the material in SavS -- which, by the way, does not contradict the CRITICAL part of what I cited from the ELH: that an Epic character is one with an ECL of 21 or higher.

I think the sidebar is incorrect because it creates mechanical inconsistencies between the advancement of LA 0 and LA >0 races.

Granted, the sidebar isn't the best piece of wordsmithing we've seen -- but it's also hardly the worst. The basic intent is clear: you are epic, when your ECL is epic.

It also contradicts the previous definition of "effective character level", an important concept, without giving an "official" update.

As I pointed out above, your timing is reversed. SavS is the later product, and if anything, SavS contradicst the ELH.

I prefer to think of it as clarifying the ELH's sidebar (which, at the time, was not meant for PCs, since level-adjusted PCs were vanishingly uncommon outside of the Forgotten Realms setting.

The Sage's clarification maintains the definition of ECL. It makes character advancement mechanics consistent for all races.

No, it doesn't.

By the ELH rules, a character with 210,000 experience points is epic. ANY character with 210,000 experience points, regardless of how many HD they have or haven't.

By the Sage's ruling, you not only can, but in many games will have a campaign where some characters are (and have been for a few levels) Epic characters ... and others are not, nor will they be for a couple levels.

If a party advances in lockstep, everyone having the same XP ... then the whole party should go epic at the same time.

Epic or not epic is a function of Effective Character Level. Not "number of hit-dice".

 

[CRGreathouse]

On page 195 of the ELH, the ha-naga (ECL 26: HD 20, LA +6) has an epic feat. This would not be possible if only character level (HD) counted toward epic progression.

Edit: Heck, the paragon mind flayer (ECL 26: 8 HD, LA +18) has 5 epic feats!

 

[Urbannen]

I admit that I didn't read the sidebar as "can." Wow. That's bad game mechanics. "You can use either this number for your max ranks or you can use that number." "You can take a feat at this level or at that level." "You can take an ability adjustment at this level or that level." Characters with LA can choose whichever level advancement method is most convenient for their character. The players have the choice, according to the sidebar.

I thought that SS came before ELH because ELH references it. Oops. The problem remains - they both give contradictory definitions of ECL. Don't you agree that there should be one inclusive definition of this important term? The Sage's ruling clarifies the discrepancy.

Another problem is that Table 1-2 says specifically that the feat gained at 21st character level is the character's 8th feat. Again, the sidebar contradicts this, since the feat the character gains at 21st ECL is not necessarily his 8th. The Sage's column clarifies the issue.

The fact that there is only one creature in the ELH (the ha-naga) that follows this rule could be seen as either a mistake or proof of the authors' intent. The paragon mindflayer gets those epic feats as bonus feats from the paragon template, and a character doesn't have to meet prerequisites in order to get bonus feats. Edit: The paragon template doesn't give five epic feats as bonus feats. It gives 2 extra feats besides the base creature's. The epic mindflayer given has way, way more feats than that, which look like an error. Even if you say that the mindflayer gets the feats of a 26th level epic character (it's CR), it still has too many epic feats.

It may be that the intent of some of the designers was to say "Once a character's ECL reaches 21, he may choose to take an epic feat for any feat gained from character levels, even if his character level is not yet 21." That is not actually what the sidebar says, however. What it does say is pretty sloppily written. The Sage doesn't say "Yes, your epic ECL character with fewer than 21 HD can take epic feats and here's how." I would have no problem if that was how the rule were clarified. Instead he says, "Only use character level when determining any level dependent features."

Who's right - the confusing sidebar or the Sage? Well, "officially" the Sage is right. Apparently there is only one printed feat that is affected by his clarification - the Ha-Naga's one epic feat. In order to "prove" the Sage wrong, I think you'd have to cite a game designer specifically contradicting him on this point.

I am going to send the question about epic feats and LA'd characters into WotC customer service. I don't have high hopes about an enlightening response, but maybe I'm missing something in the Sage's clarification.

 

[ruleslawyer]

It may be that the intent of some of the designers was to say "Once a character's ECL reaches 21, he may choose to take an epic feat for any feat gained from character levels, even if his character level is not yet 21." That is not actually what the sidebar says, however. What it does say is pretty sloppily written. The Sage doesn't say "Yes, your epic ECL character with fewer than 21 HD can take epic feats and here's how." I would have no problem if that was how the rule were clarified. Instead he says, "Only use character level when determining any level dependent features."

Except, Urbannen, that the ability to choose feats with the [Epic] designator or the ability to advance a PrC beyond 10th level technically isn't a "level-dependent feature." Skill ranks? Yes. BAB? Yes. Saves? Yes. But those? No.

Your reference to Table 1-2 is also inaccurate, since the table specifically refers to character level and not effective character level. An ECL 21 character with an LA of +1 or higher isn't a 21st-level character for purposes of Table 1-2, as is obvious. Your duergar rogue (LA +1) didn't acquire a feat upon reaching 5th level just because of his LA; why would that change past 20th level? The issue at hand is eligibility; that's much different. The ELH p.25 sidebar is reasonably clear on when characters with an LA become eligible for epic feats and post-10th-level PrC progression, and I think it should be followed.

 

[Urbannen]

Your reference to Table 1-2 is also inaccurate

Reread the sidebar. It says "in any other place [besides Table 1-1] in this book where "character level" is indicated, you can use effective character level instead." According to a literal reading of this rule, you can choose to gain any character level benefits of Table 1-2 based on your ECL, not your character level. Or am I misreading this sentence? Table 1-2 says "character level". The sidebar says that you can replace that with "effective character level." The fact that the sidebar mentions eligibility for epic feats is not incorrect; it's just one consequence of the given rule.

Except, Urbannen, that the ability to choose feats with the [Epic] designator or the ability to advance a PrC beyond 10th level technically isn't a "level-dependent feature

What is it then?

The ELH p.25 sidebar is reasonably clear on when characters with an LA become eligible for epic feats and post-10th-level PrC progression, and I think it should be followed.

The official ruling, AFAIK, from WotC is that you use only character level for determining when a character reaches epic level.

Personally I think the rule makes much more sense. ECL is a term that only applies to PCs, after all. The sidebar would have the DM calculate the ECL for high level NPCs characters and monsters. According to the sidebar, every frost giant with 4 class levels is eligible for epic feats, even though such a creature's CR would be, what, 13? (I think a frost giant's CR is 9, might be wrong.) So here you are, a 13th level character, fighting a frost giant and it suddenly it has epic level abilities, even though it only has 18 HD.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, given that NPCs don't have ECL, the issue is somewhat irrelevant. You'd actually have to determine on a case-by-case basis whether given monsters qualify for epic feats; I'd actually use CR, not HD, as the basis for that, because otherwise there can be some very silly examples of low-CR monsters qualifying for epic feats. According to the WotC "official ruling" you cite, an elder fire elemental (CR 11), for instance, qualifies to select at least two epic feats, which is a worse example than your frost giant.

As to selecting [Epic] feats and advancing PrCs beyond 10th level: No, they're not "level-dependent benefits"; they're ECL-dependent benefits, in this case, at least according to the sidebar.

As to Table 1-2: Well, yes. This is where you have to use common sense, since the sidebar clearly errs in failing to separate out the ECL-relevant part of Table 1-2 (i.e., the XP column) from the ECL non-relevant parts (the max skills, feats, and ability increases). Table 1-2 is just a continuation of the PHB tables for character level up to 20th. LA never counted up to 20th level for determining when a creature's max skill ranks, character level feats, and ability score increases rose or accrued, so there's no reason it should after 20th level. But sure, I concede this. I simply pointed out that it doesn't make any sense, viz. my duergar example above.

 

[Urbannen]

Here's the deal. I think that using character level to determine epic status makes sense. It is a uniform mechanic for all creatures and characters, whether PC or NPC. This mechanic is supported by rules text and the official clarification of WotC. All references to using character level for determining epic status are consistent.

Using ECL to determine epic status is also supported by rules text. Passages that make reference to this mechanic are not clear. Using this mechanic creates a different set of advancement rules for PCs and NPCs. References to this mechanic in the ELH and SRD say slightly different things.

I have just sent this question to WotC customer service. I imagine I will get a reply by next Thursday at the latest.

Personally I think having to wait for epic levels is another price you pay for playing a LA race. The extra power LA characters have makes them equal to their compatriots, even when their compatriots have access to epic level feats before them. However, these charactes miss out on the "cool factor" of being able to choose epic feats too. If you don't want them to wait for that "cool factor," then I think you should play with the epic rules however you want to.

I will repost to this thread whenever I get a reply from WotC customer service.

Edit: shortened sentences for readability

 

[Urbannen]

Here are my question to and reply from WotC customer service:

My question:

According to the Sage Advice column in Dragon 310, you only use character level to determine when a character or creature becomes epic. This is contradicted by the Epic Level Handbook p. 25 and the SRD:

From the SRD, "Epic Levels":

MONSTERS AS EPIC CHARACTERS
These epic rules work for monsters with character levels, using the creature's effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels.

Question: When can a creature take epic level feats and advance into an epic level prestige class - at the 21st character level (21st HD) or the 21st effective character level?

Reply from Darrin at WotC customer service:

A creature can take epic levels when the combination of their hit dice and class levels equals at least 21.

 

[ashockney]

Note that this is for CREATURE and not PLAYER.

One other relevant point that I think is worth mentioning. Having played some Epic gaming, there are two important elements to the ECL v. HD v. CL debate for Epic. When do you stop gaining the benefits of your levels, and switch to the "Epic Progression" charts. When can you gain "epic" feats. It's all about the "epic feats", the epic progression actually slow you down (sometimes significantly). So, in our group, what we did, and what worked well for players was:

Epic Progression begins at ECL 21.

Epic bonus feats begin only above level 20 in a class or 10 in a prestige class.

Therefore, if you're a 17 Fighter/3 LA and you earn another level of fighter, you don't get your 18th level of fighter progression. Instead you start on the epic progression chart (slowed down BAB and save improvements...levels the playing field). Any bonus feats or abilities you get for being 18th level still apply, however they are NOT EPIC feats/abilities. You must be over 20th in class level or 10th in prestige class level in order to qualify for EPIC abilities and feats. It's ALL about the EPIC feats, and most classes/prestige classes simply give bonus epic feats...and that's all. Now, for turning 18th level, you earn a "character feat". This character feat IS dependent upon your ECL (not your CL), so you DO qualify for an epic feat in this regard.

Good luck!

 

[Urbannen]

Note that this is for CREATURE and not PLAYER.

The question was about effective character levels, and only PCs can have effective character levels. Thus this does refer to players. PCs can be creatures (see Savage Species).

In my question I lumped all beings with LA into the classification of "creature," although I guess some aren't technically considered creatures, like drow, aasimar, and genasi.

Therefore, if you're a 17 Fighter/3 LA and you earn another level of fighter, you don't get your 18th level of fighter progression. Instead you start on the epic progression chart (slowed down BAB and save improvements...levels the playing field).

The rule you are citing comes from the 3.5 DMG. Interestingly, it is different than both the ELH and the SRD rules for advancing monster characters into epic levels. Both the Sage and WotC customer service have contradicted it and said that epic advancement begins at the 21st character level.