Gaining Spells Back

[Prophet2b]

The idea of Spell Points intrigued me, but after reading such mixed reviews on the forums, I decided to forgo any spell point system for the time being and stick to the Vancian system.

However, one thing I liked about the Spell Point system in Unearthed Arcana was the variant that let you regain your spell points. I know there's another "recharge" system, but it seemed overly complicated, so I really wasn't interested in that.

I was wondering if the following would be overbalanced, though?

Use the Vancian system and allow once per day the spell casters to rest (by which I mean meditate - riding on a horse or any other such activity doesn't cut it) for 1 hour. After that 1 hour meditation, they regain all spells equal to 1/2 their maximum spell level (rounded up).

This limits spell casters to keep them from becoming overly powerful (I hope), but means that they get a few more spells each day after they've run out.

I'm also thinking that if they do this, they will remain exhausted for 1 hour after doing this, and fatigued after that until they can get 8 hours of rest.

Example:

Wizard Jack can cast up to 5th level spells. He uses them up for the day, and so he meditates for 1 hour, gaining back all spells 3rd level and under. He is also exhausted for 1 hour, as which point he becomes fatigued for the rest of the day. Once those spells are used up, he must sleep for 8 hours to both regain spells again and get over his fatigue.

This variant would mean that higher levels spells could not be regained (unless, possibly, one was an epic level character - though I've never done epic, so I won't worry about that). The wizard/cleric/druid/whoever would not want to do this "willy nilly", either, due to the physical penalties he'd take. However, if he absolutely needed the extra spells, the option would be there

What do you think? Too over powered? Or just totally worthless and players wouldn't waste their time on it?

 

[Angel Tarragon]

:\ I think I just gave myself a headache.

 

[accipiter]

Interesting idea. The campaign I'm running right now is heavy on the PC spellcasters (druid, cleric, wizard, and barbarian), so something like this might give them a little more ammunition and staying power, without my having to worry about including as many rest stops.

On the other hand, they're already trouncing everything in sight, and I might have to downtweak experience further (already at -20%) because I'd have to increase the ELs of every encounter to compensate.

Do you think the exhaused/fatigued consequence favors the wizard too much? Negatives to Dex and Str would probably make the cleric and druid pause, but would it be a no-brainer, always going to do it thing for the wizard?

My other thought was (sorry if this is dumb, I'm kind of new at this) how is this going to affect the balance between characters? Wouldn't I need to give my fighter player something nifty and along similar lines to keep things even?

 

[CleverNickName]

I've never really liked the idea of getting all of your spells back at once, first thing in the morning. I wonder if there is a system that will allow you to spread out those spells so that you are recovering them all day long, at the rate of a few spell levels per hour, instead of all in one giant lump at 6:00 a.m.?

How about something like this (courtesy of Excel):

Caster     Total number of   Spell Level
Level      Spell Levels*     Recovery/Hour
------------------------------------------
1                13.5             0.5
2                15               0.5
3                23               1.0
4                33               1.0 
5                51               2.0
6                59               2.5
7                81               3.0
8                95               4.0
9               117               5.0
10              143               6.0
11              161               6.5
12              177               7.0
13              195               8.0
14              203               8.5
15              225               9.0
16              242              10.0 
17              256              10.5
18              264              11.0
19              278              11.5
20              291              12.0
------------------------------------------
*assumes a spellcasting class of Sorcerer, 
and that 0-level spells count as spell level 1/2

I know that this is still broken; there is no mechanic in place to keep blasters from casting 32, 9th level spells in a single day (and you know that they would)...but I like the idea of "slow recharge" of spell slots vs. all-at-once.

 

[Prophet2b]

Do you think the exhaused/fatigued consequence favors the wizard too much? Negatives to Dex and Str would probably make the cleric and druid pause, but would it be a no-brainer, always going to do it thing for the wizard?

I was thinking about that... It quite possibly would favor the Wizard, however the exhaustion is still half movement and you can't run. If that doesn't stop and make anyone pause, then something's gotta be wrong with them!

Plus, I got the idea from Unearthed Arcana. The connection was made to magic being wearying on a person physically, and the more elemental connection of magic to the real world. I like that. But there's very little good ways to implement that in a "spell slot" system, unfortunately. :\ Which is why I figured that was probably the best I'd come up with so far.

My other thought was (sorry if this is dumb, I'm kind of new at this) how is this going to affect the balance between characters? Wouldn't I need to give my fighter player something nifty and along similar lines to keep things even?

I don't think that's dumb. I'm relatively new to this, too (this summer will mark 2 years that I've played). The thing is... this kind of depends on your perspective. I used to think D&D magic was way too powerful - in a stupid kind of way. But I've come to see over time that, while it is more powerful than other classes, it's not as "powerful" (by which I mostly mean cool and awesome) as it could be. That bothers me.

So, as long as it's not going to be too much of an increase to the spell casters, so they don't start outshining the entire rest of the party regularly and taking the spotlight every chance they get, I, personally, am kind of alright with magic (as long as it's cool) being a little more powerful than the rest. I think it should be. It is, after all, magic!

So I wouldn't give the fighter-types anything more. But like I said - that's just me!

I've never really liked the idea of getting all of your spells back at once, first thing in the morning. I wonder if there is a system that will allow you to spread out those spells so that you are recovering them all day long, at the rate of a few spell levels per hour, instead of all in one giant lump at 6:00 a.m.?

That's very interesting, and I think it'd be worth pursuing. In fact, I tend to agree with you. In fact, for Sorcerer/Bard like characters, I think that'd probably be an awesome idea! But for my purposes here, I'm just trying to figure out little variants and things that I can use to minorly edit the system already in place. I don't want to throw a huge load of house rules at my players when we play again (we haven't exactly had the greatest luck with my house rules in the past - and I don't want to continue the "guinea pig" experiments... I just want to give them a good time this time ). So I think that might be a bit too complicated for me to implement right now.

However, if you figure out a good system that'll deal with that without becoming horribly overbalanced, I think that'd be awesome! And I might even implement it one of these days.

 

[Prophet2b]

Hmm... the more I look at this, the more I don't like it. Mostly because it makes spell casters more powerful (granted, with detriments, but that's still more spells each day - a good number more at higher levels), but it's not really accomplishing the feel and such that I want it to...

Anyone have any suggestions?

 

[CleverNickName]

Hmm... the more I look at this, the more I don't like it. Mostly because it makes spell casters more powerful (granted, with detriments, but that's still more spells each day - a good number more at higher levels), but it's not really accomplishing the feel and such that I want it to...

Anyone have any suggestions?

I guess a cheap-and-dirty way to do it would be to allow the characters to gain their spell slots gradually through the day. Something like zero-level spells at dawn, 1st level spells an hour later, 2nd level spells an hour after that, and so forth. But not only will that be a bookkeeping nightmare, your players will want your head on a stick.

You're probably right; best to leave well enough alone. Interesting thought, though.

 

[el-remmen]

How about a feat of some kind?

Something like (and this is off the top of my head):

Arcane Recall
You may re-cast spells already prepared and cast that day spontaneously.
Prerequisite: Arcane spellcaster
Benefit: You may cast a number of spells you have already prepared and cast that day equal to 1 + one half your caster level. Zero level spells count as 1/2 a level. Thus a 5th level wizard could re-cast up to 3 levels of spells.

 

[FireLance]

Hmm... the more I look at this, the more I don't like it. Mostly because it makes spell casters more powerful (granted, with detriments, but that's still more spells each day - a good number more at higher levels), but it's not really accomplishing the feel and such that I want it to...

Anyone have any suggestions?

One idea I've been toying with (inspired by the maneuver system in the Book of Nine Swords) is to grossly limit the number of spells that spellcasters have access to at any one time. This in itself will take out some of the complexity of high-level preparation spellcasters.

Let's say that a spellcaster has one spell slot at 1st level, and gains another spell slot every two levels, for a total of two spell slots at 2nd level, three at 4th level, and so on, to a maximum of 11 spell slots at 20th level.

Spell slots can be filled with a spell of any level. To prevent a spellcaster from filling them all with the highest level spell he can cast, there can be restrictions such as requiring each slot to be filled with a unique spell, and limiting the number of spells known (so that a spellcaster will not know more than two or three spells of the highest level he has access to).

Casting a spell empties its spell slot. A spell that has a duration continues to occupy its spell slot until its duration expires. This effectively sets a further limit on the number of ongoing spells that a spellcaster can maintain at any one time.

A spellcaster may fill an emptied spell slot after meditating for one minute. A spellcaster may also attempt to fill a spell slot as a full-round action that attracts attacks of opportunity by making a Concentration check (DC = 20 + 2 x spell level).

Some spells may need to be tweaked under this system. Healing spells, in particular, may need to be changed if you don't like the idea of the PCs starting each encounter fully healed.

 

[Prophet2b]

How about a feat of some kind?

I actually considered that, and now that you mention it, I suppose that would work. At least, it's probably better than just giving them something as powerful as extra spells without taking anything in return.

One idea I've been toying with (inspired by the maneuver system in the Book of Nine Swords) is to grossly limit the number of spells that spell casters have access to at any one time.

You, too, eh? Ever since I got the book (which I love), I've thought about trying my hand at that, too. My idea was a complete rip-off of the Book of Nine Swords, though.

I would basically get rid of any spell casting classes currently in the core books and remake them to be more like the classes in Nine Swords. I know I'd model the wizard off of the Swordsage and the Cleric off of the Warblade. I'm not 100% sure how I'd handle druids and bards - and under this system, I'm not entirely sure where a sorcerer would fit in (because assuming you had a feat similar to Adaptive Style for spell casters, every Wizard would be like the sorcerer).

Just as Nine Swords has Maneuvers Known, Maneuvers Readied, and Stances Known, I would make it: Spells Known, Spells Readied, Schools Known.

To make things easy, I'd probably leave the schools and spells alone (for the most part), and (within limits) let them choose what schools they wanted. There would still be levels, of course, so that would be a limiting (and balancing) factor, as well.

The best way to take care of some of the more powerful spells, I think, would be to increase the amount of time it would take to cast them. It's not perfect, but I think it would help, and that's all I've really got off of the top of my head.

I think that system would do two great things though:

1) It would make spellcasters much more spellcaster-like. I hate the idea of preparing spells at the beginning of the day and expending them all throughout the day, sleeping 8 hours, and then starting over again. It works great for a game, but I like a certain amount of realism, too - and I just can't buy that, no matter how it's explained to me.

2) There would be a MUCH greater diversity to spellcasters. Which I think would be a good thing.

Certain limitations, of course, would be overcome with things such as scrolls and wands and other magic items, so you're not totally screwing a spellcaster over by not letting them have access to as many spells as they would otherwise get. And they're getting such a huge boost in how they can use their spells that you could honestly create anything you wanted - and it wouldn't suck! A damage dealing wizard and a completely utility wizard would BOTH be incredibly awesome under this system, because of their diversity and ways in which they could use their abilities, both inside and outside of combat.

Anyway... Maybe one of these days I'll work on that, too, and see what I come up with. Alas, that day is not today...

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the Crusader as a template would so make a better Paladin than Paladins currently are!