Pathfinder 1E Gama trade show - Pathfinder Basic

[MrGrenadine]

There's plenty of space between Microlite d20 and Pathfinder. I'm sure that you could make a lean, mean d20 fantasy game that plays A LOT like Pathifinder without all of the extra bells and whistles.

Well *you* certainly could. Just leave out the bells and whistles.

Me? I can't wait to get my hands on the set--bells, whistles and all.

 

[Beginning of the End]

There's been talk about Paizo becoming an industry leader. I guess I'm just disappointed that instead of doing something new and being that leader, they're basically copying the idea behind Essentials. To illustrate, here's Vic's quote with some substitutions in orange.

If they were copying Essentials we would be seeing:

- Pathfinder Basic. Which produces characters which can't be leveled with Pathfinder. Nor can they be leveled with...

- Pathfinder Basic: Heroes of the Green World / Pathfinder Basic: Heroes of the Red World. (Do you need 'em both? Do you need only one? The covers will tell you one thing, the insides will you another, and the ad copy will tell you a third.)

- Pathfinder Basic: Game Master's Kit. Which will overlap considerably with...

- Pathfinder Basic: Rules Cyclopedia.

And they'd probably go ahead and brand a couple of their flip-mats as part of the "Pathfinder Basic" line, too.

With that being said, I haven't seen anything yet that convinces me that this won't simply be another pay-to-preview set.

 

[Erik Mona]

So what's your definition of "pay to preview"?

 

[S'mon]

So what's your definition of "pay to preview"?

Elements of 'preview', IMO:

1. No, or very limited, character creation - typically pregens only. Rudimentary character creation incompatible with the full game.
2. No, or very limited, level advancement, maybe just 1 level.
3. No general lists of monsters or magic items, just some sample creatures & items from the preview's included adventure.

I don't see how a set with 5 levels worth of play could be a pay-to-preview unless it were just a big adventure, like Keep on the Shadowfell with a couple extra levels. Certainly something comparable to Holmes-Moldvay-Mentzer Basic D&D would be more than a preview IMO, although Holmes-Moldvay-Mentzer would have benefitted from a couple more levels, 3 was very much a minimum even then and with today's faster advancement I don't think it would work very well. 5 is fine though.

 

[pawsplay]

I don't see how a set with 5 levels worth of play could be a pay-to-preview unless it were just a big adventure, like Keep on the Shadowfell with a couple extra levels. Certainly something comparable to Holmes-Moldvay-Mentzer Basic D&D would be more than a preview IMO, although Holmes-Moldvay-Mentzer would have benefitted from a couple more levels, 3 was very much a minimum even then and with today's faster advancement I don't think it would work very well. 5 is fine though.

In fact, with someone's E6 manual in hand, you have an entire game.

 

[S'mon]

In fact, with someone's E6 manual in hand, you have an entire game.

At 3.3 sessions to level you have around 16 sessions of play even before getting into E5 type rules - I'm planning to get the box when it comes out and I'll look at doing something like that; maybe running the first 2 adventures in the Council of Thieves AP. GMing at the London D&D Meetup I find it's hard to sustain a really long-term campaign; my 3e one got the highest PC to 8th level, and my 4e one is nearing its end with PCs currently at 6th. Planning everything around 5 levels of play might work very well.

 

[nnms]

If they were copying Essentials we would be seeing:

I have no doubt that Paizo can look at WotC's marketing purpose behind Essentials and then avoid WotC's mistakes.

My only point was that Paizo seems to be following WotC's lead with this product. It looks like it's trying to accomplish the same goals-- to make the game more accessible to new players, to have an easy entrance product for players of other RPGs or versions of D&D, to have a baseline starter product that stores can carry and know they're carrying what people need to get started.

I happen to think that a $35 box set with levels 1-5 does this better than Essentials does for D&D, but I definitely see the same marketing speak. As I showed with that substitution, it sounds an awful lot like Mearls talking about Essentials.

As for Pathfinder Basic + E6 -- Now you've got my attention! What a great idea. Can someone give pawsplay some XP? I have to wait 24 hours to give out more.

 

[Reynard]

I, for one, commend Paizo for creating what appears to be a true introductory product for Pathfinder at a price point that should allow the right demographic -- kids, and geek parents -- to buy it.

Pathfinder has the potential to unseat D&D as king of the RPG market, and products like Pathfinder Basic are absolutely essential.

Add in a few iconic "basic level" adventures and Paizo probably has an evergreen winner.

(Now if we could just get them to put as much effort into a megadungeon as they do their Adventure Paths, we'd be set!)

 

[Alzrius]

So what's your definition of "pay to preview"?

Erik, I believe Beginning of the End is referring to this post over on The Alexandrian blog.

Basically, a pay-to-preview set is a "starter" or "intro" version of a game, meant to act as a gateway towards the "full" version of the game, that itself is rendered superfluous by said full version of the game.

To put it another way, if Pathfinder Basic gives you pretty much everything that the Pathfinder Core Rules does, save that PF Basic is limited to level 5...then when you make the jump over to the PF Core Rules, which cover not just levels 1-5 but also levels 6-20, then there's no use for PF Basic anymore.

In other words, you can pay $35 and get levels 1-5, and then $50 to get levels 1-20...or you can skip the first part and just pay the $50 to get levels 1-20.

Now, I get that the purpose of any given "gateway" product is to draw in people who might like the game but are intimidated or otherwise put off by how complex it looks, and so it's primary purpose is to make the game appear simpler to learn so that they'll take the plunge and begin playing the full game. However, it'd be nice if the "gateway" product added something of its own, so that you're not paying $35 for a product that has outlived its usefulness when you start playing the "real" version of the game.

 

[Beginning of the End]

So what's your definition of "pay to preview"?

A fair portion of it is the sniff test: Does this thing I just paid money for smell like a demo?

But here's a good test:

(1) Does the book prominently and/or repeatedly tell me that I should go buy some other book?

(2) When I go to buy the other book, will I discover that this first book that I bought has been rendered completely obsolete? Could I have skipped the first book entirely?

The Essentials Starter Set completely fails this test. The rules it contains for character creation are essentially non-existent and the level-up mechanics are basically equivalent to those found in the D&D boardgames. Simultaneously, the DM isn't given enough rules to really run anything except a combat simulator. (And not a particularly interesting one, since he's only given 16 monsters.)

In addition to not providing a complete RPG, the Essentials Starter Set prominently and repeatedly tells you to go buy Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and the Dungeon Master's Kit. And once you've bought those books, you'll discover that your Starter Set is irrelevant and can be stuck in a closet.

This can be contrasted with the Mentzer Basic Set: Although it might benefit from including a couple more levels of play, it includes a complete set of rules for low-level adventuring.

Like the Essentials Starter Set, the Mentzer Basic Set mentions additional books that you can buy when you're ready for more: The Expert, Companion, and Master Sets. Also modules B1 thru B5. Module M1. Dungeon Geomorphs. Player Character Record Sheets. Monster & Treasure assortment. But when you go to buy any of these books, you'll discover that they don't actually replace your Basic Set: They supplement it.

AD&D is also mentioned, and those rules would functionally replace the Basic Set. But you're not told to go buy it. You're specifically told that AD&D is a different game. So even if you do decide to buy AD&D and put the Basic Set in the closet, everything about the Basic Set -- in both word and deed -- says that you're choosing between games, and not merely putting the demo away to play the real thing.

The question with Pathfinder Basic is the degree to which you can package a product which convinces me that Pathfinder is a different and more advanced game that I can choose to switch to, but don't need to switch to in order to continue playing.

I'll be honest in saying that a company focused on selling adventure paths that take you to levels well beyond 5th may have a difficult time selling me on that.

OTOH, full rules for 1st to 5th play would give a fairly comprehensive experience. Coupled with proper presentation, that might be enough.

Making Pathfinder Basic into an E6-type product might be an interesting way to go, but also a fairly radical one.