D&D 5E Game design allow sub optimal class build. Confirmed by M Mearls

[Maxperson]

Sure, but you have to know how to optimize in order to reliably build sub-optimal PCs.

Otherwise you're apt to get the guy who decides, "Well, I don't want to make my wizard too powerful. So I'll avoid taking any damage-dealing spells, and just use stuff like slow and glitterdust." And then the wizard dominates all the encounters, because those spells are crazybroken in 3E.

I don't agree with this. Taking a few optimal choices accidentally doesn't create an optimal PC. Also, if someone doesn't know how to optimize and just takes stuff to fit his PC, he an easily build a sub-optimal PC.

 

[ccs]

And players really should not know how monsters really work and what their challenge is if they don't want to spoil their fun.

I'm sure this didn't sound as ignorant in your head as it reads....

See, there's a great many people who play D&D both as PCs & as DMs (for ex: I play a 1/2ling warlock on Wed in CoS & I DM a 5e game on Fri). We kinda gotta know how the monsters work....
In addition? Just as a player? Once you encounter a monster in play that knowledge doesn't just vanish when a different campaign starts.

But hey, if you've got suggestions on how to accomplish/reset this "not really knowing" as a player thing? Then enlighten us.

 

[Horwath]

Simple way to make all races good for any class is option to trade racial +2 bonus for a feat.

Also intelligence could add extra language per point of bonus and extra skill/tool proficiency per point of bonus.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'm sure this didn't sound as ignorant in your head as it reads....

See, there's a great many people who play D&D both as PCs & as DMs (for ex: I play a 1/2ling warlock on Wed in CoS & I DM a 5e game on Fri). We kinda gotta know how the monsters work....
In addition? Just as a player? Once you encounter a monster in play that knowledge doesn't just vanish when a different campaign starts.

But hey, if you've got suggestions on how to accomplish/reset this "not really knowing" as a player thing? Then enlighten us.

if it is a problem, change it around a bit. I already clarified the rest in later posts.

Edit: And in the real non forum world, it is mainly 1 or 2 persons that DM.
Reading the MM as a pure player is like reading a guide for a computer game.

 

[ccs]

If you are running around with a front line great sword character with 12 strength I would look on it as deliberately gimping the party and I would assume you are an idiot and/or one of those special players who is going to disrupt the group in other ways anyway.

So you MUST have a certain proscribed + in your games. Any lower & you're a disruptive idiot, any higher & you'll post OMG! BROKEN! for months or years to come....

Even with the default array you should have a 16 in your prime attack stat or at least a 14 in the case of MAD type PCs. A 12 and you would have to be deliberately gimping yourself and the rest of the party with the exception of some spell caster builds. I would have a word with said player and if they got themselves or other players killed due to being a pumpkin I would be inclined to boot them from the group if they kept doing it. Yes I want my players to have fun but not at the expense of the others.

Dude, relax. It's not PF, it's 5e. That piddly +1 still goes plenty far.

You do not have to build the worlds best DPM machine but deliberately slowing yourself down and taking a -2 to hit and damage for no discernible reason I can figure out fits in with being a disruptive player. Maybe you are the worlds greatest roleplayer and want to have a fighter with 16 intelligence but I would like to point out you could have two 16s in that case or go with a 16 and a 14 and still be a smart fighter with 14 intelligence instead. I have a smart fighter ATM that uses dex and intelligence+ green flame blade that might be sub optimal but he has not made it out right suck deliberately and he can do his job in a fight good enough so I do not care.

I also house ruled you get bonus languages from a high intelligence.

So you've added an incentive for someone to take a high INT. But you'll get pissy, & maybe boot them from the game, if they take full advantage of that? ??

And then you go on about how you yourself are playing a sub-opt fighter & don't care?

Amazing.


BTW; do you dictate what weapons people have to use? And if not, why?

 

[Zardnaar]

So you MUST have a certain proscribed + in your games. Any lower & you're a disruptive idiot, any higher & you'll post OMG! BROKEN! for months or years to come....




Dude, relax. It's not PF, it's 5e. That piddly +1 still goes plenty far.




So you've added an incentive for someone to take a high INT. But you'll get pissy, & maybe boot them from the game, if they take full advantage of that? ??

And then you go on about how you yourself are playing a sub-opt fighter & don't care?

Amazing.


BTW; do you dictate what weapons people have to use? And if not, why?

A high intelligence fighter can work OK in 5E just don't dump strength or dexterity for it.

I more or less expect a 16 where it matters if you do not do that you had better have a damn good reason for it.

The reason I am like this is because over 20 years of DMing I have seen plenty of party fails due to composition or out right screw ups and trap options. I would trust some of my more experienced players to run an 8 intelligence wizard over Snowflake Mc Nut Nut who is new and is used to playing Paranoia RPG. There are a few cases where you can get around this in 5E.

As I said I am mostly running prepublished these days often tweaked in terms of adventure hook but mostly by the book. If I say to the players "Hey guys I am running Keep on the Borderlands tonight want to play" I would like it if they create viable characters (assuming default array) and putting stats where it matters. If you do not want to play Keep On the Borderlands just do not turn up rather than decide you want to run a 16 intelligence 12 dex/strength fighter who wants to go read books in Specularum instead.

If one of the posters here said I am running the Storm Kings Thunder personally I would just play whatever the party needed, I would roll dice if that was an option (default array is fine if the DM insists), and if I was using the default array I would stick the 15 where it matters (odds are it would be a 16 after racial modifiers). I'm not going to rock on up with a gimp character, I'm, not going to go to the nearest char op boards and rock on up with a twinked out combat wombat and I will try and play that adventure to the best of my ability not decide to wander of to Calimshan for some stupid reason.

Its just basic gaming etiquette. Don't undermine the team, don't screw with the other players, and don't F off the DM. If the DM is a tool or whatever just don't play DM yourself or find another group.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

To Zardnaars defense: I had a paladin with 12 Strength who was not so happy with his +1 attack and damage. If you take 16 as a baseline, you are at -2 to hit and even more important -2 to damage.
With a one handed weapon the difference between d8+3 and d8+1 is abou 25% and that is not even counting lower hit chance. So yes it is always just 1 less chance to hit but it adds up. And although it sometimes seems common lore around here that to hit is more important... in this case the damage is also important.
I would also say at least a 14 in your attack stat is a good idea if you intend to attack.

 

[Zardnaar]

To Zardnaars defense: I had a paladin with 12 Strength who was not so happy with his +1 attack and damage. If you take 16 as a baseline, you are at -2 to hit and even more important -2 to damage.
With a one handed weapon the difference between d8+3 and d8+1 is abou 25% and that is not even counting lower hit chance. So yes it is always just 1 less chance to hit but it adds up. And although it sometimes seems common lore around here that to hit is more important... in this case the damage is also important.
I would also say at least a 14 in your attack stat is a good idea if you intend to attack.

you are also slower and/or have a lower AC if you are in medium armor.

Paladins 16 strength (or dex), 14 charisma, 14 con you can get that with the default array easy enough. Gimping yourself is almost the same as having else in a normal game start with a +2 weapon for free.

Spellcasters can gimp themselves and compensate in other ways (bladelock for example, spell selection with wizard).

I have had 2 TPKs in 5E because of certain players screwing around like that (life cleric with 12 strength doesn't heal or play support) and a strength based dual wielder with 14 strength (taking a weak option already and making it weaker yay).

Combine crap like that with an idiot in the Rogue roll who promptly runs away and that was 3/6 useless muppets. 6 Gnolls TPK a level 2 or 3 party IIRC. If you want to suck at combat at least try to compensate in some way please.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

you are also slower and/or have a lower AC if you are in medium armor.

Paladins 16 strength (or dex), 14 charisma, 14 con you can get that with the default array easy enough. Gimping yourself is almost the same as having else in a normal game start with a +2 weapon for free.

Spellcasters can gimp themselves and compensate in other ways (bladelock for example, spell selection with wizard).

I have had 2 TPKs in 5E because of certain players screwing around like that (life cleric with 12 strength doesn't heal or play support) and a strength based dual wielder with 14 strength (taking a weak option already and making it weaker yay).

Combine crap like that with an idiot in the Rogue roll who promptly runs away and that was 3/6 useless muppets. 6 Gnolls TPK a level 2 or 3 party IIRC. If you want to suck at combat at least try to compensate in some way please.

Everything correct. But your players were disruptive for the sake of it. I wouldn't mix it up. OR they hust have different expectations and wanted to do things like playing out a character. Or both because you only allow for a single playstyle.

 

[Plaguescarred]

To Zardnaars defense: I had a paladin with 12 Strength who was not so happy with his +1 attack and damage.

Perhaps he'd be happier if he added his proficiency bonus to attack roll?

FWIW With 5E monster math, surprisingly even a +3 to attack roll can still hit many monsters' AC given enought luck. 5E monsters AC are generally relatively low and your proficiency bonus gets bigger as you level up.