Game design that I'm surprised didn't make it into more books

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think people are assuming that my original shot was that d20 is bad or something because it's complex and complex games take forever to prep for. I highlighted Spycraft 2.0 as an example of what a good game design could look like for several reasons
1. it's a d20 game
2. it's a complex game with lots of options (feats, Prcs, gear, etc, etc) for players and DMs alike. Plus there are new books that have been released and that are going to be released that offer more options.
3. despite the complexity of Spycraft 2.0 it has a system built in that allows for very fast prep time. As mentioned above I can stat out NPCs, security systems, organizations, etc in about am hour's time regardless of of the level of the adventure. The NPC design system is so elegant that once I've stated out a NPC (say for a 4th level adventure) I don't have to do any more work on him if he returns later in the campaign (say at 8th level).

Conclusion: It's a myth that complex games take a long time to prep for. It's also a myth that you need to a rules lite games to have fast prep times. Spycraft 2.0 (and to a lesser extent Iron Heroes) has proved this fact.

So, since in this case you CAN have your cake and eat it too, why havn't more game designers taken this stance?

I've never read Spycraft 2.0. Considering I'm not that fond of modern games, I probably never will. Can someone who knows the system well opine on the feasibility of someone constructing a similar NPC generation system for D&D, based on the Spycraft system? Or is Spycraft built from the ground up to allow for such a system?

 

[Tonguez]

This is why I just use Star Wars SAGA for every genre now.
Converted Race: Elf
+2 Dex, -2 Con
Low Light Vision: Ignores concealment (but not total concealment) from darkness.
Elven Senses: Elves may reroll perception checks, but must accept the reroll even if it is worse.
Speed: Elven base speed is 6 squares.
Medium Size: Elves have no penalties or bonuses based on size.
Conditional Bonus Feat: Elves gain Weapon Proficiency (Advanced Melee Weapons) if they have Weapon Proficiency (Simple Weapons).

That took all of two minutes to work up from scratch.
-TRRW

Um I don't know SW Saga too well but how does this format help we stat up Galadriel any faster than the D20 SRD?

 

[Gundark]

I think we need to accept that most games are not designed to be played so much as they're designed for a kind of meta-game comprising reading the book, thinking about how the rules might play out, designing new things using the rules, etc.

A streamlined system like Savage Worlds, designed to play well, might not read well or sell as many books.

Making a game that isn't really meant to be played??? I think we might have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Gundark]

I've never read Spycraft 2.0. Considering I'm not that fond of modern games, I probably never will. Can someone who knows the system well opine on the feasibility of someone constructing a similar NPC generation system for D&D, based on the Spycraft system? Or is Spycraft built from the ground up to allow for such a system?

I know that HeapThaumaturgist was working on something like this. The book is suppost to be released by Adamant etertainment. The book is supposed to be coming, when is another question. Hoepfully sometime this year?

 

[Alan Shutko]

Making a game that isn't really meant to be played??? I think we might have to agree to disagree on that one.

It explains a lot. How many people bought World's Largest Dungeon? Now, how many people actually played through it?

How many people actually USE all the content in all the WOTC supplements?

From a purely economic point of view, it doesn't matter to a game company whether you play these games; or whether you buy them, read them, fiddle around with statting things out, paste the art on your walls, or what not. Personally, it looks to me like Wizard's current strategy is a lot more about getting as much revenue from existing players by constantly releasing additional reading material than it is to maximise revenue by making it easy to jump on board.

 

[00Machado]

This is why I just use Star Wars SAGA for every genre now. I'll take 10 minutes to convert races and reflavor the classes, then we're good to go. As examples of converted SAGA games, I've run a historical fantasy game, a modern game, a Call of Cthluhu-ish game, and am currently working on a Harry Potter-ish game.

I'd be interested in the historical fantasy and harry potter-ish material. Do you make them available?

 

[Delta]

I think we need to accept that most games are not designed to be played so much as they're designed for a kind of meta-game comprising reading the book, thinking about how the rules might play out, designing new things using the rules, etc.

Ha, and some people were worried when the makers of Magic bought D&D!

 

[Delta]

I prefer the complexities of modern D&D to the simplicity of other systems and previous incarnations of D&D. There are alot of options for the PCs and therefore the NPCs. Sure, this will in effect generate greater prep time for the DM. For me it's not an issue, I take the short cuts mentioned above and play the game.

I'm not sure exactly what shortcuts you're talking about. But if such shortcuts exist, why not formalize them in the core rules? I think that's really the OP's original point.

 

[Clavis]

I think we need to accept that most games are not designed to be played so much as they're designed for a kind of meta-game comprising reading the book, thinking about how the rules might play out, designing new things using the rules, etc.

A streamlined system like Savage Worlds, designed to play well, might not read well or sell as many books.

That certainly seems to be the business model of Wizards of the Cost (sic). 3.5 Ed seems to be essentially a game of filling out character sheets with an ever-expanding list of collectible powers. I find it virtually unplayable as written, and refuse to DM it. Prepping for 3.5 ed is like doing taxes, and just like doing taxes if you try to ignore a rule, there will be penalties! The whole things works much better as a set of collectible books than as a game.

 

[VirgilCaine]

That certainly seems to be the business model of Wizards of the Cost (sic). 3.5 Ed seems to be essentially a game of filling out character sheets with an ever-expanding list of collectible powers. I find it virtually unplayable as written, and refuse to DM it. Prepping for 3.5 ed is like doing taxes, and just like doing taxes if you try to ignore a rule, there will be penalties! The whole things works much better as a set of collectible books than as a game.

Your comments seem equally applicable to older editions of D&D, so why are you on this forum?