Game of Death continuation thread 1

[DM with a vengence]

Hello all, just sent in my move, because I was out of the loop for a couple of days, but wow!

Number 47, I can almost forgive you for totally FUBARizing my army because those maps are friggin amazing. Of course I'll still have to take it out of you in blood.

This looks like a really good battle so far, and major props (and all tha tother hip-hop stuff) to seasong and Number 47.

Here's to round 2!

 

[green slime]

BTW, charging does not cause an AoO (PHB, page 122). Movement may do so, IF you move through the threatened area of a the creature charged (like, if it had reach).

Of course, that AoO would be negated by Spring Attack, or Tumble (Tumbling charge to grapple?!?)

Don't you just love these simple rules

Charging always FEELS like it should cause an AoO. But, alas no.

If you break it down perhaps it is clearer:

Charge up to opponent (No AoO, unless opponent has reach)
Start grapple (AoO)
Grab (melee touch, +2 for charge)
Hold (opposed grapple check)
Move In (AoO, but NOT from your target)

 

[Number47]

This actually would've had some real consequences in the first round. If the grapplers were occupying the same space (per grappling rules), then the attacks on Marius would've had a 50/50 chance of targetting Blaster instead.

By the way, seasong, what type of grappling? I did aikido for a year before my sensai went out of business.

 

[seasong]

This actually would've had some real consequences in the first round. If the grapplers were occupying the same space (per grappling rules), then the attacks on Marius would've had a 50/50 chance of targetting Blaster instead.

Yes, the consequence would have been that Blaster would (50% chance) have taken some extra damage, and Marius's 5 ft step would not have gotten him far enough to heal.

Like I said, though, I'm not revisiting it in round 1. I'm just putting together a better ruling for the future.

By the way, seasong, what type of grappling? I did aikido for a year before my sensai went out of business.

No particular type, although I have a friend who does a lot of aikido. I have some friends who do MMA, but they won't spar with me very much. My brother does MMA with emphasis on the first M, so we sometimes go at it, and I have another friend who does it for exercise.

My original start in it was in wrestling class at Jr High PE, and I've done it off and on ever since. Not good (or dedicated) enough for pro, but pretty adequate for amateur.

 

[cool hand luke]

yall should check out

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?threadid=53894&goto=newpost

for seasongs latest iron dm masterpiece.

 

[J. Anson]

I'd rule, that a "charge to grapple" ends in the square of the opponent, IF the AoO was unsuccessful, and the grapple was successfully made.

If the AoO was successful, or the grapple failed, then I'd have the grappler adjacent.

This makes the most sense to me, too; I failed attempt at a running tackle (charging grapple) seems like it would end either because the attacker was forced to stop by being hit, or by being knocked aside, etc.

 

[J. Anson]

My brother does MMA with emphasis on the first M, so we sometimes go at it, and I have another friend who does it for exercise.

Don't forget, I'll be there in two weeks...

 

[reapersaurus]

This actually would've had some real consequences in the first round. If the grapplers were occupying the same space (per grappling rules), then the attacks on Marius would've had a 50/50 chance of targetting Blaster instead.

The real consequence on the 1st round would have been that Marius wouldn't have gotten out of the AMF, and not been healed (and be soon dead, natch).

But I didn't realize that until seasong had already done all the great work on the god's commentaries, so we just have to decide what to do for later rounds.

[my opinion]
I feel we should do it by the rules.
And the rules clearly (IMO) state that when you grapple and Hold, there is a Move in phase where there is 5' of movement by the grappler.
Normal movement rules do not apply to this 5' slide, since if they did, there's a huge rules hole and no grapple could ever take place. That is most likely not what the designers intended.

After provoking an AoO, requiring a successful grab attack, then requiring a successful opposed grapple check, I guess they're saying 5' of movement isn't out of hand. Interesting that the 5' movement is outside of the normal movement parameters, but having the combatants be in the same square for grappling makes classic sense to me.

I view it as all part of one movement - the charge in, the Trip, the slashes of claws before a Bite which enters into a grapple.

Of course, with Improved Grab, the defender gets pulled into the grappler's square... which similarly could violate the movement restrictions on the defender that turn (i.e. what if the defender had already 5' moved in a full attack that turn?)

 

[seasong]

The real consequence on the 1st round would have been that Marius wouldn't have gotten out of the AMF, and not been healed (and be soon dead, natch).

See my post - I outlined the results fairly thoroughly .

And Marius would have survived the 1st round either way. The only question is how well he would survive the second round.

[my opinion]
I feel we should do it by the rules.
And the rules clearly (IMO) state that when you grapple and Hold, there is a Move in phase where there is 5' of movement by the grappler.
Normal movement rules do not apply to this 5' slide, since if they did, there's a huge rules hole and no grapple could ever take place. That is most likely not what the designers intended.

This is exactly what I said - that there is a huge rules hole .

Grapple does NOT provide movement. It does not provide a "move in phase". It does not provide any method or manner of meeting its own requirements.

Common sense dictates that it SHOULD, but doing it strictly by the rules, it DOES NOT. My question, primarily, is what house rule should we implement to make the rules sensible again.

 

[Jeremy]

Normally the touch attack, attack of opportunity, chance to negate the grapple in addition to damage, grapple check to avoid, and necessity to have another attack to actually do anything with the grapple (pin, damage, whatever) balances it enough that I allow a move then a grapple (a walking grab or tackle or bear hug isn't any different than a standing one). It has quite enough disadvantages to balance it.

As for a situation where it's a huge beasty with huge base attack and size mods to grapple and teeth and claws... If you get grappled by it, it's your own fault.

That's what winged boots and bows are for.

1 sounds good enough to me.