Game rules are not the physics of the game world

[Thaniel]

We actually live in a world where superman doesn't die by falling from a horse, but he is paralyzed afterwards. :\

No, the actor (read: Level 1 Expert, level 2 at best) is paralyzed afterwards. Level 1 (or 2) characters are able to be killed by falling off a horse by current rules.

To others who make this argument: Sorry to say, but Christopher Reeve was NOT Superman.

 

[Celebrim]

We actually live in a world where superman doesn't die by falling from a horse, but he is paralyzed afterwards.

This is because we live in a world where people who play supermen in stories aren't conferred mystical powers as a result of that. They remain regular mortals, and not Heroic Demigods as one might find in Greek myth for example.

I think 'paganism' is naturally attractive to humans. We want to live in a world of 20th level paladins. We want evil to be overcome by sheer individual power and might. We aren't happy with the sort of heroes that the real world provides, so we invent the ones we really want and wish we had.

Fortunately, we seem to have gotten past the point of needing to believe that Batman, Superman, and Spiderman are really real.

 

[JohnSnow]

I cry foul at that, but more because of the aforementioned "one person isn't playing by the rules." If the DM created rules for heroes with cancer, I'd be cool with it on one level, but that would certainly change the tenor of the game to one that is, for me, skirting close to unwelcomingly realistic.

Because Superman wouldn't die of Cancer, either.

I notice you keep falling back on your "Superman wouldn't X" argument.

I believe that's the distinction here. By the rules of his universe, Superman literally cannot die from cancer, or an injury sustained from a normal physical force. Because he's quite literally invulnerable to those things.

Even a fall from a great height wouldn't do any damage to Superman. But even a 30th-level fighter is NOT Superman. Even going by the rules of hit points, a fall can kill him. His hit points mean that he CAN survive a fall, not that he will. Superman is invulnerable to something as moderate as falling damage. In D&D terms, he's got like DR 200/-.

I submit that our high-level fighter is closer to Batman or Captain America than Superman. And before you say "no way," I should point out that with the right gear (*cough*magical equipment*cough*), Batman was able to defeat Superman (Frank Miller's Batman - The Dark Knight Returns).

In other words, I'd argue that saying "Superman can't/wouldn't X" isn't the best argument. The highest-level D&D fighter still ain't Superman.

And once you discount Superman, do recall that many of his superhero peers HAVE died from cancer and various other "mundane" causes.

 

[I'm A Banana]

. But even a 30th-level fighter is NOT Superman. Even going by the rules of hit points, a fall can kill him. His hit points mean that he CAN survive a fall, not that he will.

And they also mean that if the fall is only from a horse, dealing 1d6 points of damage, that he WILL survive. Because he would have to be a very bizarre character indeed to be 30th level and have 6 or fewer hit points.

In other words, I'd argue that saying "Superman can't/wouldn't X" isn't the best argument. The highest-level D&D fighter still ain't Superman.

They're closer to demigods. Read the link above. It's a good way to see how the rules suggest the world works.

And once you discount Superman, do recall that many of his superhero peers HAVE died from cancer and various other "mundane" causes.

But that's why Superman is more apt. 300 hp means that a fall from a horse won't kill you. 6 hp means that it probably won't. 2 hp means that it probably will. 1 hp means you better not ride a horse.

Literally, someone with 300 hp CANNOT die from only falling off a horse. They are immune to it, just as Superman is immune to bullets.

Now if that person with 300 hp fell off of 700 horses that day, maybe he'd eventually wear out because, unlike superman, D&D characters are only so reslient.

In the same way, maximum damage for falling from any height is 120. Someone with 300 hit points is immune from falling. Falling from any height into a vat of lava deals 240 damage at maximum. Someone with 300 hit points is immune from falling ito a vat of lava.

They probably couldn't do it AGAIN, but that is where D&D characters differ from Superman. Their immunity runs out, sooner or later.

 

[Mallus]

There they found what they had most dreaded, for the King had been thrown from his horse on trecherous ground, and fell down a step embankment into a hidden ravine so narrow and so preciptous that some of those that followed themselves were nearly cast in. At the bottom the saw the horrid scene, the broken body of the king lying in a shallow brook, his head dashed against a stone, with his steed lying on top of him.

So your solution to problem of a high-level D&D character being unable to die from a fall of their horse is to declare that said character fell really, really far and then the horse landed on him?! That would be the silliest thing I've heard in days if it weren't so wonderful.

Nice job making lemonade out of lemons, Cel. But make no mistake, the D&D engine is one big, rotted, possibly arsenic-laced lemon --if you intend to use it as a setting's physics.

 

[Lanefan]

This might be seen as sacrelige in this discussion, but it has to be said:

Every time I see a reference to Superman, or Batman, or some other comic book hero as being a comparison to what the PCs in a game world should be, I glaze over and skip to the next post.

If the PCs in your game are as far removed in abilities from the rest of the world as Superman is, you've got bigger problems; mostly starting with the PCs in such a scenario can do exactly what they want and nothing can stop them. Why? Because in the comic world Superman is unique. He *is* the biggest fish, by a ridiculous amount, and the *only* thing holding him in check is his own...dare I say it...alignment. In the D+D world PCs should not be unique. There's other adventurers out there...lots of 'em...some of whom have been at it far longer than the PCs, and there should always be not just *a* bigger fish, but lots of them; of all alignments.

The answer, of course, is to dial back the PC-as-superhero ideal and go instead for the PCs being more like slightly-better-than-average ordinary guys who took some risks and made good; learned some things along the way, and managed to jump in the pond with the big fish and not get eaten.

Lanefan

 

[Celebrim]

So your solution to problem of a high-level D&D character being unable to die from a fall of their horse is to declare that said character fell really, really far and then the horse landed on him?! That would be the silliest thing I've heard in days if it weren't so wonderful.

Errr... I have the feeling that you shouldn't be playing D&D then. The solution to every challenge of a high-level D&D character involves upping the stakes to match the D&D characters increasingly super-heroic prowess. That's the universe that D&D has always described. The pits get deeper. The monsters get stronger. The magic gets more world shaking. That's D&D.

Nice job making lemonade out of lemons, Cel. But make no mistake, the D&D engine is one big, rotted, possibly arsenic-laced lemon --if you intend to use it as a setting's physics.

Really? Again, you seem to have a problem with the world that the rules describe. If you want to use a world with different physics, get a different system. For my part, the rules rather exactly describe the setting I'm going for, to the point that if the rules did describe a universe where super-heroes died in mundane less than over-the-top ways, I'd have to change them because they served the purpose so badly. The setting I want has 'faerie tale physics', and D&D serves that role quite well. The above can occur in a faerie tale quite well, and as this thread points out, has to occur if you want to abide by the rules..

If you don't want to abide by the rules, it suggests you want a different game universe and consequently a different set of rules to go with. I can give some suggestions as to how you'd go about that, but that doesn't mean that the rules aren't for the most part doing thier job as written.

 

[pemerton]

Once again, firefighters are NOT level 20.

You don't have any view on the kobolds example, which was my principal point?

 

[Professor Phobos]

Some of us don't equate "heroic fantasy" with "superheroes with swords."

 

[Celebrim]

This might be seen as sacrelige in this discussion, but it has to be said:

Every time I see a reference to Superman, or Batman, or some other comic book hero as being a comparison to what the PCs in a game world should be, I glaze over and skip to the next post.

If the PCs in your game are as far removed in abilities from the rest of the world as Superman is, you've got bigger problems; mostly starting with the PCs in such a scenario can do exactly what they want and nothing can stop them. Why? Because in the comic world Superman is unique. He *is* the biggest fish, by a ridiculous amount, and the *only* thing holding him in check is his own...dare I say it...alignment.

Err, no. This is exactly one of the things I've been trying to get people to consider.

Yes, Superman is a rather over the top comparison, but the point is D&D describes a world in which the protagonists have the capacity to become superheroic. Hense, you must be very careful that the rules also don't describe a world in which the PC's are unique, because if you do in the long run in are in for a world of trouble.

Is Superman really kept in check by only his own alignment? No! Superman manages to stay pretty darn busy all the time because he has foes which are as ridiculously over the top as he is. Yes, his alignment constrains how he acts against his mortal foes (like Luthor), but against his more formidable foes Superman is merely adequate to the task and frequently has to resort to trickery, cunning and intelligence to manage. I don't think you read much Superman if think otherwise. (Please, if you haven't already, read 'Red Son'.) The point is, there are superpowered villains out there that are (in game terms) as least as powerful as Superman. Granted, often times he has to go adventuring 'off planet' to find them (or they have to come to him), but they are definately in existence in the multiverse described by the comics.