Games that wildly vary between groups

ExploderWizard said:
Are you asking about non-rpgs?
Yeah, non-RPGs.

I suppose there are some miniature wargames that might develop "house rules" or variations that are fun for some groups and not others. Some guys in our area made up some custom rules for Warhammer 40K home games.
But do these guys think they are playing the "right" way, or do they know and understand that they are playing an aberration from the norm?

Compare to our D&D (or other RPG) experiences: nothing in my D&D experiences led me to believe I wasn't playing D&D the way it was supposed to be played, yet when compared to yours (for example), it may be completely different. And you, too, probably thought you were playing D&D "normally."

Bullgrit
 

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The 'rules' of an RPG, if we mean 'all the concepts about the game that have a bearing on how the participants understand the game to be played' are so extensive that for no game have they ever been formalized. As a consequence of this, we are all playing a game which has not been standardized in the rules.

In D&D, the DMG stands as an attempt to - within certain limits - standardize play rules that aren't covered by what we would normally call the formal rules of the game. The DMG gives guidelines on how much treasure is normal, how fast characters should advance in ability, how common magic items should be, what sort of challenges the characters should face and so forth. The longer the game goes, the more it seems that the writers of the DMG see the book as having this primary role and the more they seem to think that uniformity of play experience ought to be an overriding goal. That is to say, the later the edition, the more formalized the guidelines in these areas have tended to become. But for the most part, in any edition they remain guidelines over which the DM asserts a massive amount of personal preference.

And that is to say nothing of the fact that the same DM can run two very different games depending on the play style of his players, over which he can assert relatively little control.

To attempt to answer your first question, what other games give such a huge variance in play experience, I would suggest we imagine a situation where games are not standardized by Hoyle or others, and we each learn to play 'Cards' by sitting at tables and having the rules communicated to us through play.

Quite obviously, if we consider 'Cards' to be a game, then the variance in play style is huge. Even if we consider 'Cards' to be more analogous to RPG's in general, the variation in non-standardized versions of games like Hearts, Poker, and Canasta is considerable. In fact, my family plays a version of Canasta which is pretty much unique to my family and is based on certain misreadings/misunderstandings of the standardized rules plus some odd house rules which improved the standard game (in our opinion) and so were left in. (For those that are card buffs, the version of Canasta I was brought up playing is closest to the standard version of the Canasta variation called 'Hand and Foot', although it was independently created and differs in some particulars from that game as well.) Over the years, I've met other canasta players which played variations including one or more of our particular house rules in various combinations, including ones which we invented without a rule book. And considering the number of people who we've taught to play, and the number of people they have taught to play, there is a fairly large number of people who believe that way is 'normal'.

Even monopoly can have wide variation depending on whether you auction properties when the person decides not to buy them, whether you house rule 'free parking', and how cooperatively the players play the game.

So, in practice, I'm not sure that such wide variation in play style is actually unusual. Games tend to be ammendable to house rules. They tend to be learned as much or more by playing or by oral relation from another player rather than by actually reading the rules (and the longer the rules the more this is true). Complex games tend to suffer from multiple misreadings, and these misreadings are likely to persist if the resulting game is non-degenerate. And games which are based on simple generic tools like dice or cards are particularly well-suited to the creation of variants. Since RPG's are basically dice + narration, it's not surprising that the experience of play varies so much.
 

What other games give such a huge variance in play experiences?

I have one: Poker.

Straight, stud, draw, community cards. Highball, lowball, high-low split, wild cards, passing variants House rules on betting practices. Simple matters of scale - from penny-ante to high-rolling.
 

Yeah, non-RPGs.

But do these guys think they are playing the "right" way, or do they know and understand that they are playing an aberration from the norm?


Bullgrit

They knew that that the setup wasn't standard at all. Rival Ork biker gangs making a run to Taco Bell for thier gang bosses. Victory conditions: be the 1st gang to get back to your hideout with the CORRECT order. Waste enemy gangs to improve your own odds. :D A drive through order is faster but only correct on a 1-2 on a d6. Going inside is more dangerous and takes longer but you get the order right on a 1-4 on a d6.

That was so much fun that nobody cared who won.
 

Monopoly was actually the first game I played with house rules.

Free Parking - do you get the pot or not? Is there a pot?

Can you buy your way out of jail?

How much can you negotiate prices and trades? Can players make alliances and "shady deals" with each other?

Etc, etc. My step-brother (who also introduced me to D&D) even went so far as to build a second board in the middle of the traditional board with new properties (based on our home town).

And then, of course, there's all of those collectible themed Monopoly sets that they came out with.
 

I'm going to go against the grain here partially.

It can be a benefit to be so flexible. Others have stated many of the reasons. It gives you real ownership of the game.

However, it can also be a significant negative. We have very little common experience of D&D. You can see that all over these forums in fundamental disagreements about how things work, how they are "supposed" to work, what constitutes "fun" within the game space and so on.

It's next to impossible to have an intelligent discussion about early editions of the game with a wide audience because we were all playing such vastly different games, especially if we didn't have access to cons.

Think about common experience. There's the good old watercooler effect. Everyone saw the same episode of Seinfeld and therefore share a largely identical experience of it. This gives a "watercooler" social bonding effect around the experience of watching Seinfeld. Or the recent <insert sports event here>. Or <insert reality show here>. Whatever floats the local next-day discussion boat.

D&D is something very different. Those who were in the same game as you have a very strong common experience that can lead to social bonding. Those who played a similar game to you have some of the same effect. You bump into each other on a messageboard or at a con and there's a simpatico thing going on: "This cat gets what D&D is."

Those who played an entirely different game with ostensibly the same rule set..... when these people meet (especially on the internet) 9 times out of 10 the result is the opposite of social bonding. There's all these accusations of apostasy. Godwin's Law comes into play. badwrongfun is declared. Mass hysteria.
 

What other games give such a huge variance in play experiences? I mean, whether you like Monopoly or not, it's unlikely that your experiences with playing the game (over a long time, like we do with RPGs) is much different from someone else's experiences.

Is the variance in play experiences a benefit or flaw in an RPG?

Bullgrit

RPGs have much greater variance than other games. This is mostly an advantage in that one game can suit many playstyles & fill many different needs. It comes with a caveat though that when you sit down to play with strangers you do not know what to expect. RPGs are more social than many other games that I will happily play with other random folk I do not have much interest in outside the game. With RPGs getting along with the group is far more inportant.


The only other games that IME have much variety in playstyles are miniatures games & to a lesser extent CCGs some which can either be played very casually as a social focus or very competitively. Even these do not come close to the variety of different experiences that you get with RPGs.

Board games in particular are very constrained by the rules & the fact there is typically only one "scenario" & you pretty well always get the same play experience with them.
 

Canis is talking to sort of what I was thinking.

I remember back in the 80s, talking with other D&D gamers. I heard tales of being attacked by two (2) Demogorgons. I heard about 36th-level cavaliers. And lots of other things that made no sense to me as a D&D gamer. Those people were playing some strange game that had no resemblance to my game other than the names.

In the 90s, when Magic: the Gathering came out, I remember meeting some new MtG players and I mentioned that it was nice to be able to talk to someone about a game and we all could understand and agree on everything. That is, I could tell you about how I beat my opponent in four rounds, and you'd understand every action I took. I could talk about my 3-color deck, with dual lands, and the listener understood how I had constructed it.

In the late 90s ('98-'99), when I first started visiting discussion forums, I found many D&D conversations that I just couldn't follow. Magic-users wearing armor, bladesingers, and many other concepts that were completely alien to my D&D experiences.

And then here, over the past several years. I've seen many people state as fact that D&D [whatever edition] is played like X. But I had never experienced X, and in fact, my Y experiences were diametrically opposed to X existing.

Bullgrit
 


Before I started playing D&D, I was a huge Squad Leader player. My friend and I would play constantly and occasionally, his father would play against us both. We had a great time until we went to our first local Con and played with others. Not so much the rules were a factor, but our non-military trained sense of tactics caused us to stand out like sore thumbs against the traditional beer & pretzel "been wargaming for years" guys. We played by just the SL rules, no CoI/CoD/AoV add-ons and we just liked pushing our pieces around with little regard to actual tactics, or force massing, whatever. We'd do silly things like try to do end-runs around the enemy taking 5 turns in a 7 turn scenario to move. We just were made fun of all day. Not too fun for a few 13 year olds. We learned the hard way thet even if we played by the book's written rules, there were a set of assumed rules that you were expected to know by the players at large. That's all well and good, but the reaction to our ignorance/different play style ruined it for us. Sadly, we never played Squad Leader again. Luckily D&D was introduced to use a few months later.
 

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