Gaming in a high-trust environment

[Kahuna Burger]

While I agree that trust (definition: everyone focused on having fun together) is the most important element, I won't let rules systems off the hook completely.

Sometimes a rules system is just the wrong system for a group. If you want to kick butt and take names, playing Call of Cthulhu probably isn't a good choice. Likewise, some systems just aren't ready for prime time and no matter how good a group is, they shouldn't have to be game designers to make a game work reasonably well. It's fair to point out and critique the flaws in any system, and hold the designers accountable for the shortcomings.

I agree with this middle ground. Just because a group can be "low trust" enough to break a well designed system doesn't mean that any system complaint can be dismissed as the group playing it being low trust. Since I enjoy running and playing one shots at gamedays and conventions, I judge systems and play ideas from a perspective of moderate default trust. The idea that system flaws could be overcome by a high enough trust environment is nice and all, but doesn't stop them from being system flaws.

And of course, trust doesn't just happen, so a growing hobby has to be based on a game that can be played enjoyably while trust is being established. A game that requires a high trust environment to play smoothly will always be a niche product suitable only for long established groups willing to experiment. I would be perfectly happy to look at a supplemental rules set that said at the outset "these rules can be broken by players looking to break the game, or abused by DMs looking to "win" it, and should be implemented with consideration of your group's goals and interpersonal dynamics as well as your plot and system preferences." But a) said rules would have to add something special for that risk factor, and b) I wouldn't devote resources to a core system with that sort of caveat, because as above I don't have an established group with that level of trust and yet I still enjoy gaming.

 

[Umbran]

In a high trust environment why do you need rules at all? Or would that be a perfect trust environment?

Why do we have specific poetic forms? Why should there be limericks, haiku, and sonnets? Can't a decent writer do all his work in free verse, without rules?

Sure, he or she can. But that doesn't mean they want to. Sometimes the framework can be an aid to creativity, rather than a noose around the neck.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

I agree with this middle ground...

But how do you maintain the middle ground? How do you keep it from decaying into something petty and joyless?

 

[Moggthegob]

I dunno. I played Living Greyhawk and it did not really stink and it was awesome. But I do not think you can really claim trust in a system where you dont have any of the same people each week. But it still worked and I thought it was quite awesome. Then again there was the basic understanding of powergaming for survival and the rules are king.

 

[Hairfoot]

If I've got no connection to the people (like what happens every time I move and have to start over) then I honestly don't have a choice. I either have to take a chance or go without playing.

I relate to this, and I agree with much of the post.

For me, 06/07 was a golden era of D&D, but my current group is having its last hurrah in January. After that, one player is moving away, another doesn't want to play anymore, and the other three have...personal differences, which means I'll be starting again with strangers, probably after six months of trying to find a game.

We had about 8 months of perfect synergy, where the players trusted the DM implicitly and it felt like we were taking part in an adventure more than a game. For me, that's the ideal, and it relies on trust.

 

[jmucchiello]

I find it a lot easier to build HTEs with people who are not more than 10 years my junior. This is not to say that I didn't have HTEs in my 20's. I did have a few HTE games… which consisted of other 20-somethings. In my 30s, I had an HTE campaign with other 30-somethings.

Yes, but into your 40s, (don't take this wrongly) if you have the interpersonal skills to maintain a longterm HTE with a group of people, you'll have raised teenagers who will have the interpersonal skills and personality to mesh with the existing HTE. (Older teens, of course, they have to have shaken off most of the early teenage boundary-poking angst.)

Touched on elsewhere in the thread, I'd like to turn the equation around. HTEs "lighten" the rules level of the games played in those environments. IOW, 3e played in a HTE will be a lot looser than 3e played where rules-lawyers rule. The complexity of the rules is glossed over in such environments.

 

[Umbran]

HTEs "lighten" the rules level of the games played in those environments.

I think HTE can allow the rules level to lighten, but that the environment doesn't force such. It is not a foregone conclusion.

The trust may be of the form, "Trust me, playing by these rules will be fun," and, "Trust me, I'm taking the plot in an unexpected direction, but it will be fun," and, "Trust me, though it looks like the rules allow this person to be overpowered, we can manage fun for everyone anyway"

"High trust" should not assume a specific mode. People can be trusted to do many things, in many ways.

 

[Jeysie]

Why do we have specific poetic forms? Why should there be limericks, haiku, and sonnets? Can't a decent writer do all his work in free verse, without rules?

Sure, he or she can. But that doesn't mean they want to. Sometimes the framework can be an aid to creativity, rather than a noose around the neck.

Agreed there. My group is a high-trust environment, yet we vastly prefer rules-medium systems to rules-light or freeform. Why? Because it means we get to think about the story, rather than having to decide on our own whether action X should work or not. It's less work for us, and less worrying about whether everyone's getting a "fair deal" or not.

Because even in a high-trust environment, everyone's still *human*. You still can feel a little selfish about not wanting your character to get hurt or gypped... or conversely, you might be so worried about being unfair that you let your character "lose" too often because you don't want to seem greedy/selfish. Using rules and dice lets you not have to personally worry about striking a balance between the two.

And yes, rules aid creativity as well because they give you an important base to start from. "Do anything you want" sounds good on the surface, but it means having to think up *everything* out of the blue yourself, which can be difficult. Too many choices can be overwhelming, since you can find yourself not even knowing where to start.

Peace & Luv, Liz

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Because even in a high-trust environment, everyone's still *human*. You still can feel a little selfish about not wanting your character to get hurt or gypped... or conversely, you might be so worried about being unfair that you let your character "lose" too often because you don't want to seem greedy/selfish. Using rules and dice lets you not have to personally worry about striking a balance between the two.

Well put.

IMO, High Trust must coincide with style. I've seen groups that love to do power gaming. They delve so deep into the rules because they want to make up more powerful characters. The DM goes along with it. So it could be said that they have a high trust, rules heavy environment. However a group with a single powergamer and four heavy roleplayers often won't work out for someone, and I suspect it's the former.

I’ve gamed with emotional cripples, control freaks and people who started PvP fights (when the game did not call for it and when it got in the way, actually) just out of spite. These kinds of people make up a sizable minority of players and they will not know what you are talking about if you are not talking about them, they will just understand their emotional need to hurt the other players.

Not all of these players are irredeemable. Granted, many are, and they marginalize themselves quickly. However, I've met so many good and wonderful and decent gamers out there that I think it is a very few bad apples that give everyone else a bad name. I have seen some of them grow up and become good gamers though.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

Because even in a high-trust environment, everyone's still *human*

And there is the rub, as they say. It is very human to be a total butthead and trash the game. In my experience this has less to do with people trying to avoid being taken advantage of in the game than is does with them abusing other players.