[GenCon] No more Euro GenCon, can't say I'm shocked.

Ravellion said:
A few additions/observations.

1) Peter was at the con on Saturday night, at the charity auction. His wife bought his complete slavery for £200 :) (for a duration of 2 hours), so that is not true Bagpuss... no offence, but fair is fair.

I didn't know that.... but thanks for enlightening me. I take back my complaint about him not being at the convention.
 

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FYI: It's entirely possible that Peter didn't even think to check to see if the Con was on Easter. Here in the States, Easter is barely even recognized. Most people don't even get Good Friday off. Unlike Christmas (which pretty much everyone, Christians and non-Christians alike, get time off around) there isn't the secular attention paid to it. I would be surprised if it even came up in conversation.

Not to excuse what happened (you guys got a raw deal), but that's just a bit of info for you.
 

As someone who attended Gen Con UK as a US publisher, I thought I might weigh in. It seems to me that people are being a bit too harsh.

First, as has been observed, Peter definitely was there. He's very hands on in running Gen Con.

On the topic of Easter: Holidays in the US and holidays in Europe are really not the same. In Europe, there are a whole bunch of days when entire countries seem to go home. In the US, many businesses are open on many or all holidays (we take for granted grocery stores that are open 24 hours a day, every single day of the year); and I didn't have Good Friday off of school even when attending a Catholic elementary school as a child. In particular, in the US holidays are often good for game conventions -- hotels are still open, but rarely do they have high-paying business-type conventions booked, so it's easier to find space and negotiate a good price. Hence Origins has often been on the 4th of July holiday; for decades Minneapolis hosted the MiniCon SF/F convention always on Easter Weekend. Plus, time off from work means that gamers can more easily travel long distances, if they have time off from work and need to, say, drive 6 or 8 hours. And American extended families are often separated by thousands of miles, meaning it only really works to visit your parents/siblings/aunts-and-uncles once a year (say at Christmas or Thanksgiving), so minor holidays like Easter are perfect for gaming. I can't remember the last time I went home to visit my parents for Easter. Maybe one or twice in my entire adult life? And they're only 150 miles away. (As for further relations -- my wife and I visited my aunt in Brighton, where she's spending a year teaching, while we were in the UK...probably been more than 20 years since I last saw her.)

Peter told me that he had specifically asked a lot of people last year about the Easter holiday, and was given the impression that it would be just fine and would not keep them from attending. Mind you, his reading of peoples' responses may itself have been colored by cultural differences -- he interpreted the responses as meaning the holiday would not be a problem for most people; perhaps people really meant "I'm so devoted I'll be there in spite of the holiday" or "I don't want to be rude by telling you you're obviously insane for holding this convention over Easter, so I'll nod and tell you what I think you want to hear."

So if gamers told him, "Of course, we'll be happy to drive to Amsterdam to attend Gen Con and play games in English" -- were they representative of enough gamers to make it work? The language issue isn't a question about the Dutch (I've loved every visit to the Netherlands, and never found language a problem) -- it's more a question of, will players travel from Spain, Portugal, Hungary, Finland, Poland, Croatia...and is language an issue for them? They look far away on the map, what with all those borders in between, but that's the kind of geographical range that gamers travel to the US Gen Con. I know we have fans in all those countries -- my goal as an attending publisher would be to have a venue where I could reach those fans, and if I attended the show in Amsterdam and didn't see that kind of attendance I'd be a disappointed customer.

I think Peter really felt rather blindsided by the way things turned out -- I suspect that's the crux of the cultural differences issue that concerns them. Making a huge investment in Amsterdam (and persuading a lot of US game publishers to make their own huge investments to attend), and risking a new set of problems (exactly which problems are not even known in advance, since they'll be problems rooted in assumptions and things taken for granted), is honestly not a prudent idea for them. I think if they take a couple of years to (a) polish the US conventions, which will involve quite a lot of work (with a new convention in California plus a new venue for classic Gen Con in the Midwest), and (b) work on a game plan and do substantial scouting and market research, they should be able to take a fresh start in Europe and make a really impressive convention.

They did have a plan, and it was not "knowing it would fail." I think Gen Con UK pretty much blew their plan out of the water, though, and showed them holes that they did not know were there. Rather than marching ahead into an obvious quagmire, they're taking note of the limits of their knowledge and experience, sensibly withdrawing and regrouping, working on a new plan -- not giving up.
 

Meanwhile the "best four days in gaming" which I've been attending in the UK for about a decade no longer exists. Its not like a european event had never existed before or there weren't experienced people to call on. He didn't have to start from scratch and introduce a whole load of new systems that were never going to work.

The low turn out was only half the problem, it might have seemed the whole problem to Peter Adkison but even for the people that went it was badly run.

People selling the tickets to games didn't have a clue about the events and never spoke to the people running the games. What sort of a strategy is that?

If I knew it was going to be that badly run next year I wouldn't buy a four day ticket even if they ran it on my doorstep. As it is they arn't going to run it. Which I suppose is a good thing, hopefully it will allow another organisation to run the "best five days in gaming" in the UK.
 

Hi John! :)

JohnNephew said:
As someone who attended Gen Con UK as a US publisher, I thought I might weigh in. It seems to me that people are being a bit too harsh.

Firstly let me say I enjoyed the seminars at which you were a guest speaker, and thanks for the handouts at the "How to start a game company without going broke or insane" seminar, very insightful. Unfortunately I was one of the people who had to leave that seminar early (because we had the ENWorld game to get underway) before I could get asking any questions. :rolleyes:

However, my related point is this. I know you don't speak for WotC, but you do know Jonathan Tweet. Didn't it seem strange to you that he was invited over as a guest yet there were no seminars for D&D/d20 (in the vein of say: '3.5 Edition'; 'The future of d20' etc. or somesuch related d20 centred topic)? I know I wasn't the only one who thought this was ridiculous!
 

I am one of the organisers of the international EuroGT (www.eurogt.org) and let me tell you that language and distance are barriers.

At the EuroGT we have an attendance of around 40 people, coming from Sweden, UK, Germany, Switserland and of course the Netherlands. Only 40 people while Warhammer Fantasy Battle is very popular in Europe, probably more popular than RPGs.

People from France, Italy or Spain don´t attend because they feel language is a barrier, as they don´t speak English very well (or at least they think that) and they certainly don´t speak any Dutch.

Also, distance is a barrier as European airlinetickets are very expensive compared to US domestic flights. People are also not used travelling 7 hours by car to go to a convention.

I have been to GenCon Europe when it was held in Belgium and it was just as bad, or even worse, as GenCon UK this year.

In the Netherlands we have only one game convention, namely The Mega Gaming Days and even that convention is struggling, focussing much more on traditional board games then roleplaying games.

So, GenCon Europe in Amsterdam might work but the organizers have to create a whole new market almost from scratch. Also, they need to come up with a solution to lower the language and distance barriers, mainly for the French, Spanish and Italian players.
 

I totally agree with you Carl. Mega events are traditionally harder to pull of in Europe than in the US of A, unless it's soccer. It just takes a lot more organisation to attend something outside your own country. Perhaps the Euro will change some of this, but I still think it will take time.

Also: a lot of the movers and shakers in our hobby are American and I can understand it's not easy for them to make the trip over here. Which takes away a lot of the appeal.

I'm also a wargamer and I see that there are quite a few wargames conventions in Europe that are succesful. Seldom mega events, but always interesting enough with nice trade stands, demo and participation, ... Reason: smaller scale, organised locally by clubs. And a lot of interesting companies are European (with a high Brittish percentage.) And a lot of these companies only sell through mail order and on these conventions.

Funny how these hobby-industires that are so closely related structured in such a different way.
 

JohnNephew said:
(we take for granted grocery stores that are open 24 hours a day, every single day of the year);

Speaking as a stocker in one of those stores, not only did I work the entire Easter Weekend. They MADE me work good friday, which also was my Birthday, which according to my workers union I'm supposed to have off, paid. But because of the holiday weekend...NO ONE was allowed to have off for ANY reason.

We close only 3 times a year...New years eve, Thanksgiving night, and Christmas, with Christmas day being the only Full DAy that is closed, the other two the store opens early the next morning.

A little info about the Grocery biz....at least in Green Bay, WI.
 

Carl Stanford said:
Also, distance is a barrier as European airlinetickets are very expensive compared to US domestic flights.
Living with three Americans who are amazed at the cheap flights available to Europeans (and using them for trips to Italy, Greece etc), this seems odd. I think you are basing your assumption on pre 11/9/01 data (or pre Easyjet/ Budgetair/Ryan Air information perhaps even?).

That said, I agree with you: going abroad and crossing more than one country border is seen as a big deal. The Dutch'll go to Belgium or Germany, but France is pretty much out of the question. I don't think the South European gamer market is easily accessable with a North European convention, regardless of perceived distance by Americans.

Something else: being from Amsterdam originally as wel as being an avid gamer, having worked in a game store and for a game manufacturing company, I think you need to work on your "naamsbekendheid". I never heard of your event until just now, and I haven't been living in Brighton for that long. Print some flyers and drop them at the ABC and the Gamekeeper, not just the Gamesworkshop. The Gameworkshop is very much a niche market of the niche markets.
 

Ravellion said:
Something else: being from Amsterdam originally as wel as being an avid gamer, having worked in a game store and for a game manufacturing company, I think you need to work on your "naamsbekendheid". I never heard of your event until just now, and I haven't been living in Brighton for that long. Print some flyers and drop them at the ABC and the Gamekeeper, not just the Gamesworkshop. The Gameworkshop is very much a niche market of the niche markets.

Well, we want to keep the EuroGT small-scale with a maximum of around 80 participants. We could advertise more but than risk having too many participants.

The fact is that we tried inviting a number of French, Italian and Spanish gamers, and all of them were interested but all had a problem with both the language and the distance.

We also had Polish and Greek participants, but they only attended once because of the distance and costs involved.

I think GenCon Europe can work but the organisation has to change the current European way of thinking.

I think Spiel! comes very close as a kind of GenCon Europe and I am curious how many foreigners that convention attracts.
 

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