[GenCon] No more Euro GenCon, can't say I'm shocked.

[Mathew_Freeman]

OK, so they may have got the impression that people were prepared to go to GenCon at Easter. But how much research did they really do? Anyway, it wasn't like I ever heard anyone mention that gamers were being consulted in any way, GenConEurope was on next Easter, and that was that.

And I think the cultural barriers that are problematic are far more to do with American - European than anything else. You speak casually of "only 150 miles away". To me, 150 miles away is somewhere I go on holiday, not somewhere I would consider driving to or visiting overnight. Add in changing countries, and you're starting to get it. As the saying goes, 200 miles is not a long distance in the States, 200 years is not a long time ago in Europe.

Regardless of the timing or the place of the event, the onsite organisation was terrible. That's what we're really complaining about. I had a good time, but so many people including those that were running games as well as those playing in them, didn't have a good time because of bad organisation. I mean, you couldn't pay by credit card or debit card for games or to enter the Convention. In 2003. At a major convention centre in the capital of England. WTF?

I know you're trying to defend the Convention, but it's hard going. I hope that this was simply bad organisation, nothing more, but really, they could hardly have made it worse.

Looking forward to hearing any more responses from anyone actually connected to the event.

 

[Dismas]

Living with three Americans who are amazed at the cheap flights available to Europeans (and using them for trips to Italy, Greece etc), this seems odd. I think you are basing your assumption on pre 11/9/01 data (or pre Easyjet/ Budgetair/Ryan Air information perhaps even?).

<snip>

ABC and the Gamekeeper, not just the Gamesworkshop. The Gameworkshop is very much a niche market of the niche markets.

I travel to Amsterdam with work every couple of months. In january with easyjet, flying from gatwick to schipol cost us GBP6.00 each (excluding tax) going out and about GBP20.00 for the retrun journey.

(I just did a quick check Gatwick to Schipol, around the begining of sept when GenCon UK would have been. Under GBP50.00 return including taxes.)


Ravellion, I know where ABC and GW are in Amsterdam, but where is Gamekeeper?

 

[S'mon]

Hi John!

Firstly let me say I enjoyed the seminars at which you were a guest speaker, and thanks for the handouts at the "How to start a game company without going broke or insane" seminar, very insightful.

I'd just like to concur with Krusty that John Nephew's talks at the various seminars were for us very much one of the highlights of an otherwise mostly disappaintoing convention. Thanks John!

-Simon

PS: I was the one at the Ars Magica talk who asked a question that showed he knew nothing about Ars Magica (re how the magic fitted in with the medieval society) - several of us d20-ers sneaked in to see Johnathan Tweet, since he wasn't giving any talks about d20-related stuff.

 

[S'mon]

The appalling GenCon UK website(s?) may have detterred people from going, as well as the date. The mess meant I gave up on my initial attempt to register. Whem I tried again 4 weeks before the event, I discovered that registration was closed! So Krusty & I decided to register on site. When I got there I bought my admission ok (lucky I had cash I guess), but reading the brochure, the brochure itself didn't seem to know where registration for RPGs was - one place said 3rd floor, yet the people at the desk there didn't seem to be doing anything. Confused & discouraged (and knowing that the official games cost money too, even though the interesting ones are basically ads for their game systems) I decided to seek out DOGs games to register for - only there weren't any this time. Not even a DOGs board to advertise my own. The only free games I could find were being run surreptitiously by Phil Masters & co in the trade hall, and unfortunately by the time I found them it was too late to play, so I ended up not actually _playing_ anything for the entire 3 days.

 

[Clumsy Bob]

PS: I was the one at the Ars Magica talk who asked a question that showed he knew nothing about Ars Magica (re how the magic fitted in with the medieval society) - several of us d20-ers sneaked in to see Johnathan Tweet, since he wasn't giving any talks about d20-related stuff.

hehe me too. I asked the question about the d20 version.

Bob

 

[JohnNephew]

Meanwhile the "best four days in gaming" which I've been attending in the UK for about a decade no longer exists. Its not like a european event had never existed before or there weren't experienced people to call on. He didn't have to start from scratch and introduce a whole load of new systems that were never going to work.

...hopefully it will allow another organisation to run the "best five days in gaming" in the UK.

Well, in recent years the show in the UK was actually being run by Esdevium, the games distributor, wasn't it?

My hope is that someone like Esdevium will step up to the plate on the offer to do license conventions to use the Gen Con brand. If the experienced people who have run the show in the past think it's a worthwhile investment, they can inquire about getting the rights to do another Gen Con UK, and take advantage of their local knowledge, contacts, and experience. I think that would be great. And people who proved their entrepreneurial and con-organizing skills would be perfect for Gen Con LLC to hire in the future to run a new Euro Gen Con.

My worry is that the UK-only convention was, even when it seemed healthy, too marginal already to be worthwhile on a for-profit basis. Conventions are tough, and from what I've seen most of them lose money and implode sooner or later.

 

[S'mon]

My worry is that the UK-only convention was, even when it seemed healthy, too marginal already to be worthwhile on a for-profit basis. Conventions are tough, and from what I've seen most of them lose money and implode sooner or later.

I don't think Gencon makes sense as a commercial proposition per se, but what it does do is provide a focus for the industry, drum up interest in new games, and increase the amount of product that gets sold. Eg I'm sure Eden Studios' heavy presence both in the trade hall & the talks by George Vassilokos shifted a lot of Buffy tVS & other Eden games, both at the Convention and subsequently. Eden seemed to be the star publisher of the show for this reason, although AEG & Mongoose both had an impressive presence - Mongoose are definitely the dominant home-grown presence in UK gaming right now. By contrast WoTC were almost invisible, their stall didn't even have any actual D&D or d20 product(!!).

 

[JohnNephew]

You speak casually of "only 150 miles away". To me, 150 miles away is somewhere I go on holiday, not somewhere I would consider driving to or visiting overnight.

Heh. My wife and I will be driving those 150 miles this weekend, on Sunday, to attend a memorial service for a friend who passed away. And then driving back that night, the same 150 miles again.

When Origins was moved to Columbus, OH, as a permanent venue, part of the reason was to be within an 8 hour drive of X million people (the densest population area of the USA). In US convention planning, it does not seem outrageous to assume that you can draw a certain tiny percentage of the population within that driving radius. In Europe, however, it's clear that those assumptions will not work -- something that seems as objective as the measurement of space and time is as it turns out wildly culturally subjective. That's a big problem, and the con organizers need to study and understand it before they commit to a big show.

I understand what you mean about the on-site problems, and I can't argue with them. I really enjoyed my seminars, but I would have liked much better attendance, and the one event I was involved in that had ticketing (the "celebrity Once Upon A Time") was a bit confused on the coordination side (an attendee helped me figure out where it was being held).

As for the seminars themselves -- I designed three events (the Ars Magica one; the "how to start a game company" one; and the Once Upon A Time charity game), and recruited the other participants (including last-minute recruitment of, for example, George Vasilakos of Eden and Alex Fennell from Mongoose to help out in the game co. seminar -- many thanks to both for joining!). I also joined in the Gamemastering Secrets event that Ann Dupuis ran; she invited me since the book reprints an essay of mine. I believe all the GOHs designed their own events and/or joined in the events proposed by others.

 

[Bagpuss]

When Origins was moved to Columbus, OH, as a permanent venue, part of the reason was to be within an 8 hour drive of X million people (the densest population area of the USA). In US convention planning, it does not seem outrageous to assume that you can draw a certain tiny percentage of the population within that driving radius.

8 hours is a driving radius? 8 hours means an extra day off work just to get there and another to get back.

8 hours means about £100 pounds or more in fuel.

Say the ticket for the event cost £25, that's very reasonable.

Then for someone travelling your 8 hours, its an extra night or two in a hotel at about £45 to £100 a night.

So just because of the distance your £200 to £300 pounds out of pocket, not including what you lose for not working 2 days.

That's an eight to twelve fold increase in the cost of the event, that why European's have a different culture to travel.

Why would I want to spend £200 pounds to sit in a traffic jam on a motorway?

 

[JohnNephew]

8 hours is a driving radius? 8 hours means an extra day off work just to get there and another to get back.

8 hours means about £100 pounds or more in fuel.

Say the ticket for the event cost £25, that's very reasonable.

Then for someone travelling your 8 hours, its an extra night or two in a hotel at about £45 to £100 a night.

So just because of the distance your £200 to £300 pounds out of pocket, not including what you lose for not working 2 days.

That's an eight to twelve fold increase in the cost of the event, that why European's have a different culture to travel.

Why would I want to spend £200 pounds to sit in a traffic jam on a motorway?

Right. And it is not nearly as expensive in the US as in Europe.

8 hours = about 500 miles (figuring clear freeway driving, which is usually a good assumption for a road trip like this, averaging 60 miles per hour, which even allows time for stops to grab food and hit the restroom since you'd be doing 65 or 70+ even without speeding on most Interstate highways). Our car (a 1993 Geo Prizm) still gets 35 miles per gallon on the freeway, even running air conditioning in the heat of summer. That means travelling 1000 miles (round trip) uses about 28.5 gallons of fuel, which costs in the US about $1.50 per gallon. Thus, travel round trip to a con 8 hours away costs us $43 -- which, in Europe, was the cost of my wife and I just taking a train from London to Brighton and back to visit my aunt after Gen Con UK.

Remember, many Americans have 1-2 hours commute EACH WAY to work every day. When I lived in Northfield, I had no shortage of neighbors who drove 35-40 miles to work in Minneapolis or St Paul every morning.

Food and lodging are considerably cheaper in the US than in Europe, too. (We were looking at the prices of homes in the realtors' windows and trying to figure out how anyone can afford to live in London on a working class wage!)

So -- you're absolutely right. The difference in costs, and probably the relationship between cost of living and typical wages, really means that assumptions one might have from conventions in the US don't apply to Europe. (Perhaps, too, the European gamers felt that they had spent so much just to be at the convention, they didn't have money to spend in the dealer, er, traders room -- yet another problem.)

And thus we find Euro Gen Con put on hold.