Genders - What's the difference?

It's really not important. I suppose, simply, some broadly non-offensive mechanical difference in sexes that somewhat mimics perceived differences in fantasy.

I think too many people find any mechanical difference offensive for this to be a realistic goal. You may get broad agreement that what you use as your house rules are your own business, but a significant portion of folks will still view what you're doing as sexist, no matter the specifics of your implementation.
 

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I think too many people find any mechanical difference offensive for this to be a realistic goal. You may get broad agreement that what you use as your house rules are your own business, but a significant portion of folks will still view what you're doing as sexist, no matter the specifics of your implementation.

Umbran has the heart of the matter, JC. Once you've established that many people find any mechanical difference to be immoral, you probably won't even get the broad agreement that your house rules are your own business. Instead, whatever you say you are going to get a lot of "there must be villain in there somewhere" behavior.
 


Instead, whatever you say you are going to get a lot of "there must be villain in there somewhere" behavior.

I should clarify - what I think this means is that you have to aim for an implementation that is acceptable for your own group. Unless you're going to publish them, how broadly they're accepted is not really relevant.
 

Umbran has the heart of the matter, JC. Once you've established that many people find any mechanical difference to be immoral, you probably won't even get the broad agreement that your house rules are your own business. Instead, whatever you say you are going to get a lot of "there must be villain in there somewhere" behavior.

Some people find a lot of mechanical differences to be immoral; some of those people have posted in this thread. Unless you consider the issue trivial, it is a moral issue.

I'm not interested in a witch-hunt against anyone's house rules, and I don't know who is. Perhaps you can clarify who you think is doing that.
 

Some people find a lot of mechanical differences to be immoral; some of those people have posted in this thread. Unless you consider the issue trivial, it is a moral issue.

I'm not interested in a witch-hunt against anyone's house rules, and I don't know who is. Perhaps you can clarify who you think is doing that.

I don't know about other people but, for me, inserting elements into the game that have a tendency to weed out players of a variety of different groupings (whether based on sex, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc) without being necessary or optional seems foolish at the minimum and ranging well into the realms of stupidity and immorality in more extreme forms.
 

So now 1E was immoral because it had stat differences for genders. In the early '80s, it was immoral because it was a little too free with magic and demons. I believe we have another hot topic on that very thing, at the moment. :lol:

With apologies to G. K. Chesterton's, one begins to suspect that D&D was not as odd as its critics. That rather than being this strange thing with this odd defect, it was all strange things, with all defects, some of them mutually exclusive. One almost begins to suspect that one could beat it with any stick ...

And yes, I'm well aware of the irony or stealing that thought, given what GKC was defending. :angel:
 

I don't know about other people but, for me, inserting elements into the game that have a tendency to weed out players of a variety of different groupings (whether based on sex, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc) without being necessary or optional seems foolish at the minimum and ranging well into the realms of stupidity and immorality in more extreme forms.

I'm pretty much done with this topic, but this sort of assertion is worthy of at least an attempt at answer.

One thing I've learned posting at EnWorld over the years is that to gamers, pretty much everything about games ends up being a topic that carries moral value. It doesn't matter how you play, someone is certain that you are not only doing it wrong, but having badwrongfun. I say this with full knowledge that I've from time to time been guilty of the same hubris.

For my part, I believe that this hobby is little more than a vainity. That it is ultimately trivial is both its damnation and its saving grace. The least we could do is drop some of the pretention with respect to other people playing a game since there is very little that can occur within the game that is ultimately serious. If we believe otherwise, then we ought to apologize to Jack Chick, because if this game is that filled with potential moral hazard perhaps we ought to consider a more healthy and less hazardous hobby like going to bars and over indulging in spirits.

In this particular case, it seems some people believe that they can infer from an aspect of the game mechanics whether or not someone is sexist and from that draw some bright sharp moral dividing line. This is hardly surprising, since as I said, there has hardly been a topic I've been involved in where someone didn't accuse me of moral, emotional, and mental disfunctionality for disagreeing with them. A full accounting of the number of times I've been called stupid, foolish and immoral on this site would number in the hundreds, to say nothing of the thousands of times I've seen such insults hurled at third parties. It's not like I expect this topic to be unique in that matter because it involves gender politics; nothing else has escaped it either.

For my part, I find no such coorelation between this mechanic and well anything. I'm not ready to pass moral judgment one way or the other on people who do or do not endorse or use a particular sort of mechanic. The reason for this is that I can imagine sexist motivations behind, either including or excluding such mechanics and I can imagine a complete lack of sexist motivation behind such inclusions and exclusions. I can imagine women who prefer and invent such mechanics, and I can imagine mysogynist games designed by people with sterotypically disfunctional mental issues with the opposite sex. Heck, I can imagine games filled with misandry as well. What I can't imagine is lumping everything in to one category.

Ultimately to me the matter does seem trivial. It is a trivial matter within an otherwise trivial gaming excercise. In and of itself, it tells me very little of the table, it's interests, or even the genders that play at that table. In short, in and of itself, having mechanical gender differences I think tells you nothing about the people playing the game. It's a fairly trivial matter of table preference, probably often adopted for the most trivial of reasons, and while I understand some people might have been previously burned on this topic just as there are some who've been burned by bad DMs using every sort of excuse imaginable (which is why we have wars over editions and over sandboxes vs. adventure paths, to prep or not to prep, and every other seemingly trivial preference), I would encourage people to understand that their own experiences probably doesn't cover the wealth and diversity of tables that are out there (good or bad).
 

So now 1E was immoral because it had stat differences for genders. In the early '80s, it was immoral because it was a little too free with magic and demons. I believe we have another hot topic on that very thing, at the moment. :lol:

There's a big moral difference between foolishly injecting a sexist rule that will unnecessarily alienate players and crafting a game that deliberately belittles racial minorities (like RaHoWa). And in any event, TSR fixed its gender-based state limitation foolishness over 20 years ago with 2nd edition. Atonement accomplished.
 

For my part, I believe that this hobby is little more than a vainity. That it is ultimately trivial is both its damnation and its saving grace. The least we could do is drop some of the pretention with respect to other people playing a game since there is very little that can occur within the game that is ultimately serious. If we believe otherwise, then we ought to apologize to Jack Chick, because if this game is that filled with potential moral hazard perhaps we ought to consider a more healthy and less hazardous hobby like going to bars and over indulging in spirits.

And if there's anything I've learned at ENWorld, people are more than willing to pour their hearts, beliefs, and prejudices into this hobby you consider a vanity, and spend a lot of time debating these trivial aspects of trivialities even when they profess to be done with the topic. There are not only many ways to approach the hobby, but also many levels of significance the hobby may play in people's lives and many ways that styles, forms, and contents of play may reveal or obscure elements of the players' character.

And I'm content to let what I observe guide me in my estimations of what other hobbyists would fit in well with my circle of gamers and friends. I can tell you right now that any gamer who insists that there needs to be mechanical differences between male and female PC statistics because of real-world differences isn't a good fit... and not just because the women I game with would be telling him where he can shove his RPG rules (In particular, nobody would want to piss off the short, red-haired one. She's got a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and is frequently armed.).
 

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