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General consensus on expertise feats

I personally don't know whether the expertise feats are "needed" feats in order to fix the math...and I don't really care.

But I do think the +2 attack bonus at paragon is more than almost any other feat out there (the +1 is nice but there are more interesting feats I would often take).

I also agree it reduces the viability of certain multiclass combinations and people who like multiple types of weapons.
 

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Similarly, many players apply these as penalties to the monster. Monsters get -1 to all defenses at 5/15/25, -1 to attack NADs at 5/15/25. This can be easier because
-DMs are better at this sort of thing than players
-The +1 bonuses cannot be applied in character builder

Well, you can fake out the character builder by using the houserule feature to give your character Expertise in every weapon/implement your character is likely to use as bonus feats.
 



Non-AC Defenses, got it. Thanks for the definition.

I'm always surprised to hear how the math is broken in 4E in small ways, especially in the skill challenges. I remember reading Wizards hired mathematicians to ensure a solid mathematical foundation for the game's system. Are these issues often blown out of proportion? I know in the case of the skill challenges it just didn't work at first, and has been treated at length in DDI and DMG2.
 

Well, I think that mathematical elegance is highly overrated.

People get more concerned with the pattern of the numbers being perfect into Epic rather than 'Is epic actually difficult?'

Playtesting is far more important, and I think the 'number spread' was highly playtested.
 

Epic combat

The above is a thread I started which details my epic level party without expertise feats still hitting too easily for my liking (ie. I am in the "ban the feats, don't give anything in return" camp).
 

Theorycrafters who are crunching the numbers say the expertise feats are necessary to fix a math error and are thus a feat tax.
That's not accurate.

Theoretical optimizers noticed the discrepancy long before the feats came out, and opinions were divided on whether the discrepancy was an actual problem or not. Many of us pointed to the benefits of more & better Utility buffs, and the exponential damage increase from the growth of Leader power bonuses -- since back then, the iconic Leader bonus powers were Righteous Brand and Furious Smash, and those scale with ability, which scales with level.

- - -

However, pretty much nobody likes the feats.

Those who think the discrepancy was a problem think the feats are a "feat tax".
Those who don't think the discrepancy was a problem think the feats are needless power creep.

Cheers, -- N
 

Epic combat

The above is a thread I started which details my epic level party without expertise feats still hitting too easily for my liking (ie. I am in the "ban the feats, don't give anything in return" camp).

It's really dependent on the group, including the DM.

There are several factors involved:

1) PC design.

My wife was playing a Ranger and even with Twin Strike, she wasn't hitting a lot. So, I designed a sword and shield fighter for her that does a lot of close burst attacks. She has the highest to hit in the party, she has the highest AC in the party, and on many rounds she swings multiple times (sweeping blow / come and get it, etc.).

Suddenly, she loves her PC. She hits a lot because of 2 to 4 attacks many rounds combined with the best to hit.

She averages less damage per attack than the party Ranger (obviously) or even the party Sword Mage, but she's having a great time because she hits a lot.

Such a PC will become problematic at Epic level with the expertise feats (especially level 21 as per your link, the strongest relative level in the game system) because she is optimized for "to hit".

A PC like our Cleric who concentrates mostly on healing, has few area effect powers (hence, she typically gets one to hit per round) and the lowest AC in the party is a lot less of an issue at Epic with the expertise feats. She hardly ever hits and if she gets surrounded, has to waste time trying to avoid foes as much as she tries to attack them.

So, it really depends on individual PCs.

2) Which splat books are allowed.

When the PHP first came out, it was a lot harder to have a highly optimized PC and even harder to have a highly optimized group. Every time a splat book comes out, it becomes easier and easier to find feats and powers and classes and combinations that are just a tad bit stronger than previous books allowed. PHB II, for example, has 12 heroic feats alone that add a bonus to hit in one way or another (including expertise feats). Granted, many of them are extremely conditional, but it can and does add up. Combined with the synergies that new and different feats, powers, paragon path, racial, and epic destiny abilities bring to the table, it all adds up. This is generally not as true for monsters. Monsters are not getting that much stronger. The "math" was worse when there were fewer splat books. Something as simple as getting a reroll once per encounter on an attack roll adds an average of +3 to that attack roll.

3) PC familiarity vs. DM familiarity.

The players tend to play the same PCs day in and day out. Nearly every encounter can teach them a little bit more about each other and what works and what doesn't work.

The DM doesn't have this advantage. Nearly every set of monsters he brings into an encounter tend to be different with different strengths and weaknesses. As a general rule, I often go "Doh! I should have had the monsters arranged this way, or I should have done this instead of that". The learning curve for the DM is a lot steeper because his variables are changing every single encounter. There is also the issue of memory. I sometimes forget that a certain monster has a certain ability until it is too late precisely because this is the first time I am running that monster. "Doh! I should have used that power last round.". The players have this issue less since they eventually learn their PCs inside and out.

So I think there is a major difference between playing an epic encounter with PCs that the players are not as familiar with than with ones they are totally familiar with. The players familiar with their PCs will squeeze ever ounce of to hit bonuses out of their PCs.

The DM also has the issue of too much vs. too little. The players will often design their PCs to get a lot of "too much". If the DM does that, he could be begging for a TPK. For example, if the DM pulls in multiple monsters that stun, even if they are within the DMG guidelines for an encounter, a few bad dice rolls could spell trouble for the PCs. The players don't have this issue. The tougher they make their PCs, the easier it is for them to survive.


So getting back to the expertise issue, it is dependent on the group. Super optimized groups where many splat books (or Dragon magazine) options are allowed could easily get away with not having access to the Expertise feats.

Less optimized groups, groups that have access to less material, and/or groups where the DM is more on top of his game could use the Expertise feats and still be behind the 8 ball, even at Epic level.
 

The essential consensus probably is that everyone will agree on.
The feats are very powerful.

Most people don't like them, because they are too powerful and either create a problem by being so strong, or they are an attempt to fix a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

---
I would disagree that it's much about "system mastery", though. You don't need to master the system to understand that a +1 to +3 bonus to attacks is very good. It's a little more difficult to grasp than the idea that if a class description mentions that Strength is the most important score for a class that it should probably be your highest score...
 

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