General Discussion Thread VIII

[Velmont]

If we accept that, the Energy Substitution Metamagic feat is in it, so would we continue to leave the one that have been approved lately?

 

[Knight Otu]

I just read the old thread where we discussed that (the same thread that made me a judge. ), and Creamsteak's opinion was that it should be fine, "but there are problems with that. First off, some of the abilities listed in the SRD might not have been updated to 3.5, but 3.5 versions exist in books like Complete Divine."

This way my post regarding the SRD update:

It might be worth it to discuss these two sources before anyone assumes that they are available for characters.
I know there was a discussion about the 3.0 psionics, and that they were excluded. I do not know whether that was because of a general dislike of psionics, or because they were not yet updated.
Deities and Demigods may not seem a problem at first, but it grants access to a number of domains, spells and feats. Domains is good for deity creation/improvement. But the rest? I guess that has to be discussed.

Feats in the Divine files:
BLINDSIGHT,5-FT.RADIUS [GENERAL]
DISGUISE SPELL [METAMAGIC]
DIVINE MIGHT [DIVINE ]
DIVINE VENGEANCE [DIVINE ]
ENERGY SUBSTITUTION [METAMAGIC]
EXTRA MUSIC [GENERAL]
EYES IN THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD [GENERAL]
FLEET OF FOOT [GENERAL]
HOLD THE LINE [GENERAL]
JACK OF ALL TRADES [GENERAL]
KNOCK-DOWN [GENERAL]
PERSISTENT SPELL [METAMAGIC]
PLANT CONTROL [GENERAL]
PLANT DEFIANCE [GENERAL]
POWER CRITICAL [GENERAL]
REACH SPELL [METAMAGIC]
REPEAT SPELL [METAMAGIC]
SACRED SPELL [METAMAGIC]
SHARP-SHOOTING [GENERAL]
SUBDUAL SUBSTITUTION [METAMAGIC]
SUPERIOR EXPERTISE [GENERAL]

Most of these feats use the revised versions that have been released in different books (such as Persistent Spell having a +6 adjustment).
It seems that only two of them are not updated (Divine Vengeance should be Sacred Vengeance from CW, and Energy Substitution should be Energy Admixture from the MiniHB)

The following Domains were added:
ARTIFICE DOMAIN
CHARM DOMAIN
COMMUNITY DOMAIN
CREATION DOMAIN
DARKNESS DOMAIN
GLORY DOMAIN
LIBERATION DOMAIN
MADNESS DOMAIN
NOBILITY DOMAIN
REPOSE DOMAIN
RUNE DOMAIN
SCALYKIND DOMAIN
WEATHER DOMAIN


<Also, the MIND DOMAIN from the psionics files>

The following Spells were added:
Armor Of Darkness
Blacklight
Bolt Of Glory
Bolts Of Bedevilment
Crown Of Glory
Genesis
Hardening
Maddening Scream
Rage
Surelife
Touch Of Madness
True Creation
Undeath To Death


I think it is easy to see that the Domains and Spells from D&Dg were not updated at all.

I'm personally fine with allowing the content, with the following exceptions:
>Content from the Domains and spells sections. They have to be approved seperately (several things have been approved already).
>Energy substitution. If we officially get rid of the sonic option for Energy Substitution, I think we can let it live alongside "our own" feat.
>Whatever Rystil says is broken should be looked at.

 

[Rystil Arden]

>Whatever Rystil says is broken should be looked at.

Yay!

Basically, the two key ones are Persistant Spell and Improved Combat Expertise. These feats are not for everyone, but the problem is that when you choose the right spell to Persistant, it can be devastating (though otherwise it is quite harmless) and ICE when used by an appropriate build (or a monster with more HD than CR) will make them unhittable except on a 20 by any opponent. Fortunately, the number of characters on LEW who would have significant use of these feats (Fighters with BAB higher than +5, the higher the better and Wizards at least Level 11 but generally higher level) is basically 0 right now, so you have plenty of time to think on them.

Oh, and you missed one that wasn't updated--Jack of all Trades now gives the much more elegant benefit of 1/2 rank in every skill (which effectively does the same thing, mind you, but is much more elegant in how it does it compared to the blunter 'You can use any skill untrained'), but the SRD version has not been changed to reflect that

 

[Pbartender]

Hey guys... Read that section of the SRD over again thoroughly...

"Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats."
(emphasis mine)

This section of the SRD is about creating statistics for Deities (or players who have become Deities), not your typical Adventurer who's still crawling up out of single-digit levels.

Take another look at how many of those feats have a "Divine Rank" prerequisite. And I don't think the "domain" prereqs concern clerics in the slightest.

 

[Knight Otu]

"Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats."
(emphasis mine)

True, but those feats were collected from various other books where these feats are available to "your typical Adventurer who's still crawling up out of single-digit levels."

Take another look at how many of those feats have a "Divine Rank" prerequisite.

None of them do. The abilities that have a Divine Rank prerequisite are Salient Divine Abilities, and definitely not the point of the discussion, as no character will receive them anytime soon.

 

[Knight Otu]

Persistant Spell

Is it still that troublesome with the +6 adjustment? I admit I didn't follow its career too much after the revision, but I heard a few mumblings about how worthless it is now.

Improved Combat Expertise

Will be checked.

Oh, and you missed one that wasn't updated

I suspect there may be a few more. The post I quoted above was made when the SRD addition was made, and I think only Complete Divine and Complete Warrior were out at that time.

 

[Pbartender]

None of them do. The abilities that have a Divine Rank prerequisite are Salient Divine Abilities, and definitely not the point of the discussion, as no character will receive them anytime soon.

Eh... My mistake then... I must have missed the division.

Never mind me, then.

 

[Knight Otu]

Heh. Automatic Metamagic would be too good to be true as a feat.

 

[Pbartender]

Yeah... That's the sort of stuff I though Rystil was worried about.

Honestly, I've never had a problem with any of the other feats.

Even Persisant Spell isn't as good as most people think, if you actually pay attention to the limitations on the spells you can use it with. The personal or fixed ranged qualifier alongside the +6 spell level adjustment really limits the usefulness of that particular feat.

 

[Erekose13]

Persistent Spell is silly wrong when combined with Divine Metamagic from Complete Divine (one of the books RA rightfully bans in his own campaigns)