General Discussion

[Satin Knights]

By the book, it would be priced similar to a bard spell. In PFS, they have a "divine or arcane is irreverent, one pricing rule" override which would price it off the wizard's list. I am pretty sure we voted one time to go with the PFS ruling. So, the only spells costing extra would be those that are only on a summoner's, bard's or inquisitor's list etc.

Unfetter is special cost, while Haste is always as Wizard 3rd. Go with Wizard 2 cost for the See Invisibility spell, ignoring the arcane or divine aspect.

 

[jkason]

Go with Wizard 2 cost for the See Invisibility spell, ignoring the arcane or divine aspect.

Excellent. Thanks much.

 

[mfloyd3]

Thanks to GE for taking on the Swift Alchemy.

I have another question. Alchemists cannot cast from scrolls (they cannot use spell completion items) but can learn formulae from them like wizards do. So, a sensible thing for the alchemist to do is buy the scroll, make their Spellcraft check, and then sell the scroll back (since they can't use it). They pay the cost of transcribing the spell, but otherwise get it for free. Is this "working as intended?" Should there be an additional cost? I'm fine either way, just checking.

A second question is the copy of a formula list or spellbook. How is the time to make a copy handled? Also, we now have "lifestyle" rules that imply the character owns a home of some kind. Can this be viewed as a safe repository for a copy of a spellbook? For that matter, there seems to be an unwritten rule that a character's wealth is fixed by their adventuring history, implying that items with a monetary value are never permanently taken away (or that full replacement value is recovered). Is there such de facto protection for spellbooks? If so, the question of a copy of the spellbook is moot.

Finally, can a wizard or alchemist attempt to learn the same spell from a scroll at a later date? Is there an official rule, or perhaps there should be a guideline of one try per level?

Thanks,
M

 

[jkason]

I have another question. Alchemists cannot cast from scrolls (they cannot use spell completion items) but can learn formulae from them like wizards do. So, a sensible thing for the alchemist to do is buy the scroll, make their Spellcraft check, and then sell the scroll back (since they can't use it). They pay the cost of transcribing the spell, but otherwise get it for free. Is this "working as intended?" Should there be an additional cost? I'm fine either way, just checking.

I think this is the relevant text:

An alchemist can also add formulae to his book just like a wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs and time requirements.

Emphasis mine. Part of the cost of a wizard adding scroll spells to his spellbook is that the process consumes the scroll. Barring some other text that says alchemists somehow save theirs, I think they lose scrolls in transcribing them, as well.

A second question is the copy of a formula list or spellbook. How is the time to make a copy handled?

Are you talking about learning, or just flat out copying? My assumption is that there's no appreciable time involved in making a copy of your formula list, since you don't have to learn them again. I could see a GM ruling you needed to take extended time in-adventure if you decided to make a copy spontaneously, but outside of an adventure, I think it just costs the price of another book.

Also, we now have "lifestyle" rules that imply the character owns a home of some kind. Can this be viewed as a safe repository for a copy of a spellbook?

I would think so, unless I missed rules for "random B&E of character homes."

For that matter, there seems to be an unwritten rule that a character's wealth is fixed by their adventuring history, implying that items with a monetary value are never permanently taken away (or that full replacement value is recovered). Is there such de facto protection for spellbooks?

I think this may be a fallacy derived from the Wealth By Level limits. If you have an item, then sell it, you get full price for it. You can still, however, lose items or have them destroyed, but you don't gain their worth in that case. You should probably note on your sheet their loss, so that level-up approvals--which try to reconcile your gear with your listed gold from adventuring--can get the accounting right.

Finally, can a wizard or alchemist attempt to learn the same spell from a scroll at a later date? Is there an official rule, or perhaps there should be a guideline of one try per level?

Here's the page you're looking for: Learning Spells

In LPF, failing to learn a spell, at least by the text there, means you have to wait until your next level to try again.

 

[mfloyd3]

Thanks for clarifying the rules on the scroll -- I had not realized copying a spell from a scroll consumed it. That's that then. Also sorry I missed the wiki page about learning spells. But there is something:

Are you talking about learning, or just flat out copying? My assumption is that there's no appreciable time involved in making a copy of your formula list, since you don't have to learn them again. I could see a GM ruling you needed to take extended time in-adventure if you decided to make a copy spontaneously, but outside of an adventure, I think it just costs the price of another book.

Here is the relevant text from the d20srd:

Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.

Should we assume that the time required to copy the spellbook follows the same rules as for copying a spell for the first time (calendar days per En day)?

I think this may be a fallacy derived from the Wealth By Level limits. If you have an item, then sell it, you get full price for it. You can still, however, lose items or have them destroyed, but you don't gain their worth in that case. You should probably note on your sheet their loss, so that level-up approvals--which try to reconcile your gear with your listed gold from adventuring--can get the accounting right.

OK, thanks for clarifying. So the lifestyle rules have an important side effect: Wizards, magi and alchemists have a repository for copies of their spellbooks. This will rarely be important, but when it is, it will be hugely important.

For that matter, the lifestyle rules also allow stashing of other items. Key among these will be gold. No one with a large cash reserve would carry it all with them. The character has a safe place for it.

Likewise, useful magic items that the character does not need at that moment can be stashed. This is less likely, since selling the item at the Black Pearl puts it in inventory and even if another character buys it, there is still a 75% chance of getting a duplicate back. But it's within the realm of possibility.

Again, I don't think this is a problem, but I don't remember this getting discussed in the lifestyle rules. Is this working as intended?

Thanks,
M

 

[GlassEye]

Thanks to GE for taking on the Swift Alchemy.

Actually I meant you should write up your proposal and give it its own thread. You mentioned you had ideas... Sorry for the confusion (poor word choice on my part).

I have another question.

Most of your questions were ninja-answered by jkason (thanks, mate!) so I deleted my answers.

I would think so, unless I missed rules for "random B&E of character homes."

Safe repository? I lean towards it is only as safe as you can make it and it will never be perfectly safe. However, I imagine most DMs would be reluctant to mess with a character's home.

Finally, can a wizard or alchemist attempt to learn the same spell from a scroll at a later date? Is there an official rule, or perhaps there should be a guideline of one try per level?

In LPF, failing to learn a spell, at least by the text there, means you have to wait until your next level to try again.

The Official Rule is one week later. Maybe we should revisit this and, perhaps, change our rule to calendar week later or one week of time during an adventure.

 

[jkason]

THere is the relevant text from the d20srd:


Should we assume that the time required to copy the spellbook follows the same rules as for copying a spell for the first time (calendar days per En day)?

Gah. Missed that, myself. Since RAW says the copy time is half that of learning it, it seems logical to me that you could copy your spellbook at a rate of 2 spells per calendar day, though judge opinions may vary.

Again, I don't think this is a problem, but I don't remember this getting discussed in the lifestyle rules. Is this working as intended?

It's my understanding that the cost of living rules were intended more to try to streamline bookkeeping (by allowing a one time buy-in that obviates tracking smaller consumable purchases). I suspect the "safe house" element was an unintended side-effect, though I don't know that it's one that needs to be eliminated.

In general, it seems to me the safe house stuff is only going to prove very helpful for adventures set specifically in Venza. In most cases, I think anything a player thinks might be useful is going to be on his or her character from the start of the adventure, and if it's not useful, go to the Pearl and trade it in on something that is.

I also tend to be of the opinion that making a dedicated effort to destroy or steal PC gear is kind of poor form on the part of a GM except in the case when the adventure requires the temporary loss of something, though, so that may be clouding perceived value on my part.

 

[Satin Knights]

The "until he next levels" is my mistake. A hold over from 2.0/3.? days I guess. I will go change that in a little bit to the "one week" for retry to record a spell into a spellbook.

To copy your own spellbook as a backup is 1/2 cost of the transcription costs, so it would be 5 gp for each first level spell, 20 gp for second levels, etc. And the 15 gp for the cost of the book itself. No roll is necessary for the backup copy of your spellbook. So, making a backup copy and storing it in a safe home is a good idea.

As to time, I suggest we go with 2/day if you are doing it in a public place like the DWI. If you have a home where you can be alone, 30 minutes/spell level. We have set the precedence of a calendar day being 3 hour of in game work. So, 6 first levels or 12 cantrips in a calendar day without a roll if you are duplicating your own spellbook.

As to a safe house, I hope so. Arianna went expensive and included good locks on the doors and windows, all using a different key. There are traps too. Kalgor carries his life in his backpack. But to unencumber himself in a fight, he drops the backpack often. If something happens while it is unattended, I am not going to fault the GM.

 

[mfloyd3]

Actually I meant you should write up your proposal and give it its own thread. You mentioned you had ideas... Sorry for the confusion (poor word choice on my part).

Ack, pretty silly mistake on my part. But I'll hold off on making a proposal until the Treasure Pool discussion has shaken out, as that could affect things.

 

[GlassEye]

With the change in character goals and the fact that Still Waters has gone on for almost five months I think it would be best to wrap Dockside Diversion ~ Still Waters and transition to a new thread (and clean math) in Dwarven Crusade.

I need a judge to review the awards for Still Waters (located Here). Thanks.