General Monster Manual 3 Thread

[Rechan]

I seem to have missed it - where are the monsters that have effects on a miss?

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I seem to have missed it - where are the monsters that have effects on a miss?

Some... the following have attack powers that have "effects" that don't require a hit (so, work hit or miss):

Banderhobb Finch has a shift on one power, a teleport on another, and can give a free action to an ally on a third.

Cambion Infernal Scion's and Dread Guardian mark even on miss.

Cloaker Lord's moan stuns on a hit, dazes on a miss.

Ultrodemon has an attack that prevents target from attacking him.

Hellwasp has a shift on its melee basic.

Ancient Blizzard Dragon has a power that still does all of its condition/status effects on a miss.

Drow Zealot has an attack that gives it bonuses ONLY on a miss.

Drow Exalted Consort has an improved darkfire that still does its non-damage effects on a miss.

And so on... don't have the time to wade through the whole book right now.


Note, there are also a variety of powers that do 1/2 damage on a miss, but I haven't listed those. There are also a variety of powers that do something bad but require no attack roll, and I haven't listed those either. Others create zones on miss, but I haven't listed those either.


My own gut feeling from this brief survey is that there still aren't too many attacks that do stuff on a miss, but there are a LOT of powers (through auras, triggered actions, etc.) that don't require an attack roll at all but still inflict nastiness on the players.

 

[BrokeAndDrive]

No matter how much water you throw at a human, the human is never damaged because we have immunity to water.

 

[Dice4Hire]

No matter how much water you throw at a human, the human is never damaged because we have immunity to water.

Flash Flood Sweeps Campground; Dozens Missing : NPR

Really?

 

[Celisasu]

No matter how much water you throw at a human, the human is never damaged because we have immunity to water.

Unless you drown of course. Or get hit by water at a high enough pressure.

 

[Zaukrie]

Moridin, I am 100% behind this change in philosophy, in terms of resistances. Great design decision.

 

[Markn]

Moridin,

I remember reading a blog or a post by Mike Mearls a year or two back regarding his desire to see resistances changed. IIRC, the creatures implemented in MM3 are along the lines of his original design musings. Can you confirm if this change was directed by him or more of a team approach. Just curious.

Oh, and I want to say thanks for taking the time to come to Enworld to post. I really believe that WotC employess should come here more often (yet at the same time I can see why they don't: see Athas thread). Anyways, much appreciated.

 

[Wik]

Actually, one of the things we tried to promote in this MM (at least in the case of the volcano dragon and other catastrophics) was that they have elemental deterrents instead of resistances. It's still a bad idea to hit the volcano dragon with fire, it's just not a "I wasted my time with that spell" bad idea, but instead, "Well, I hit him with fire, and so he did damage to everyone in the aura."

This helps not only eliminate the "wasted turn" feeling that resistances to cause, but also helps speed up combat; instead of reducing one target's hit points by less, both sides got their hp decreased.

Hm. I like that. It's a pretty cool design philosophy, and one I can totally see freaking out my players.

I always liked the monsters that get BETTER when hit by an effect (golems + electricity, for example), but it's cooler when they get better AND take damage.

 

[RodneyThompson]

Moridin,

I remember reading a blog or a post by Mike Mearls a year or two back regarding his desire to see resistances changed. IIRC, the creatures implemented in MM3 are along the lines of his original design musings. Can you confirm if this change was directed by him or more of a team approach. Just curious.

Hm. It's hard to recall exactly (this is just one small thing in a big book, a book I was done with last August!), but from my recollection it was something that came out of collaboration between design and development both. We've actually been talking about the role of resistances and vulnerabilities for a while now, so it was really just an evolution of design. It probably started with Mike, but I know we spent a lot of time talking about the catastrophic dragons' deterrence mechanics, even involving people all the way up the chain as high as Bill Slavicsek at one point.

I do know Mike's not fond of resistances (maybe I'll nudge him to pop by here and talk about why), while I'm *mostly* OK with them. I say mostly because (in my opinion) sometimes it's OK because it is appropriate for the monster. The trick with resistances in my book is that you've got to give vulnerabilities or similar weaknesses to counteract them. We don't always do that, though, and I think that's where we get fights that slow down when the wizard and the warlock just aren't damaging the fire archon, for example. It might just be me, but I like a little bit of reward for having the right spell at the right time; I like that the cleric says "bring 'em on" to undead because of radiant vulnerability. It's a little bit of classic D&D that I think falls by the wayside just by the nature of how easy it is to pick resistances. It's easy to say "What should this be resistant to?" but forget to figure out where to put the rewarding weakness.

Deterrence mechanics, on the other hand, circumvent this by making it so you feel threatened after using a certain damage type (or forced movement in the earthquake dragon's case), but don't slow down the game, or really even stop you from using that same spell again. In fact, in some cases you might say that dropping the dragon with your big fire spell is worth taking some fire damage, sort of a "race to see who runs out of hit points first" between the dragon and the party. And since the catastrophics are elites, not solos, it makes it a bit tougher of a thing to consider, since once you down the dragon you've likely still got a few enemies to deal with. If it was a solo, you might be tempted to say "damn the healing surges!" and just drop the nuke on the dragon without regard for your own hit points.

As you can see, it's no small amount of thought that goes into even a single monster ability.

Oh, and I want to say thanks for taking the time to come to Enworld to post. I really believe that WotC employess should come here more often (yet at the same time I can see why they don't: see Athas thread). Anyways, much appreciated.

Well, the truth (for me, anyways) is that while I've got time to read the forums everyday, sometimes I just don't have time to post something. Sure, the internets gets a little hostile from time to time, but luckily the Mod Squad here does a pretty good job of keeping threadcrapping to a minimum, which (for me) is pretty much the single biggest killer of my interest in a thread.

 

[Markn]

Thanks for the insight Moridin!